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  #31  
Old February 10th 04, 10:31 PM
Kevin Brooks
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"* * Chas" wrote in message
om...

"Fred the Red Shirt" wrote in
message
om...
"Kevin Brooks" wrote in message

...
snip

... This was at a time
when the Marines were so hard pressed for pilots that

they
had to send men to Army and Air Force Flight Schools.


It seems to me that if the Marines had to send pilots to

the
Army and AF for training then the Marines must have had a

SURPLUS
of pilots (e.g. too many to for the USMC to train on its

own)
rather than being hard pressed for them.


DOH! we were loosing them at an extremely high rate.


So was the Army, and the USAF, and the USN. In fact, IIRC the USMC aircrew
casualty rate was below all of the above?

The
life expectancy for USMC Huey crews was about 3 months! I
have a quote from a current Marine fighter pilot "I'm a
riffleman and I fly a jet fighter!" The Marines developed
the concept of close air support in "banana Wars' of the
late 20's and early 30's!


And that is applicable how...?


Hmmm...one wonders why those same archaic fighters were

sent to Thailand and
Vietnam throughout the major part of the war, and as we

have already seen in
another thread, why a couple of them were lost in combat

operations.


If indeed they were archaic that does help to explain why

some
were lost in combat, does it not?


They flew anything that they could get off of the ground
down at the boneyard at Davis-Monthan Airbase outside of
Tucson, AZ.


Not really.


We had 2 R4Ds at Danang in 1964-65 (C47 also known as DC3).
The seats were removed and they were used to ferry ARVN
troops and their families and all of their pigs and chickens
around. They were full of patches from bullet holes.


The C-47 family continues in service in some air forces to this day; its use
during Vietnam was while it was a relative *youngster*!


The Air Force flew WWII era Douglas A26/B26 Invaders up
until Feb 1964. They carried 6,000 bomb loads and had up to
16 .50 Cal MGs.


Those "On Mark" B-26's were used for a number of reasons, not because they
were the only thing available.

Then there were the B57 Canberras which the
Aussies also flew.


Which were not that old at the time (the last EB-57 did not exit service
until after 1980), and BTW, they were not the same aircraft. The USAF flew
the Martin built B-57, with a fair number of mods; the Aussies flew the
original BAC Canberra.


The mainstay of the USAF close air support effort were the
old ex Navy/USMC propjob AD-6 and AD-7 Skyraiders renamed
A-1E through A-1J.


No, they were not. The A-1's did fly CAS, and a lot more RESCAP, but they
were not the USAF's "mainstay". There were more F-100's in country than
A-1's.

The Marines retired the last Skyraider
squadron out of NAS Memphis in the early 60's. The Navy
still flew them off of carriers in the Tonkin Gulf until
late 1965???


Good airplane--so your point would have been?


And of course, the spooks had a slew of C-47 and C-23 cargo
haulers.


That would presumably be C-123, and they were also used by the USAF side,
alongside the later C-130's. And the last C-123K's did not leave USAF
service until the early eighties.

Brooks

--
Chas. (Drop spamski to E-mail
me)







  #32  
Old February 10th 04, 11:39 PM
George Z. Bush
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Fred, I didn't know you stuttered. (^-^)))

George Z.

* * Chas wrote:
"Fred the Red Shirt" wrote in
message
om...
"Kevin Brooks" wrote in message

...
snip

... This was at a time
when the Marines were so hard pressed for pilots that they
had to send men to Army and Air Force Flight Schools.


It seems to me that if the Marines had to send pilots to the
Army and AF for training then the Marines must have had a SURPLUS
of pilots (e.g. too many to for the USMC to train on its own)
rather than being hard pressed for them.


DOH! we were loosing them at an extremely high rate. The
life expectancy for USMC Huey crews was about 3 months! I
have a quote from a current Marine fighter pilot "I'm a
riffleman and I fly a jet fighter!" The Marines develoved
the concept of close air support in "bannana Wars' of the
late 20's and early 30's!

Hmmm...one wonders why those same archaic fighters were sent to Thailand and
Vietnam throughout the major part of the war, and as we have already seen in
another thread, why a couple of them were lost in combat operations.


If indeed they were archaic that does help to explain why some
were lost in combat, does it not?


They flew anything that they could get off of the ground
down at the boneyard at Davis-Monthan Airbase outside of
Tucson, AZ.

We had 2 R4Ds at Danang in 1964-65 (C47 also known as DC3).
The seats were removed and they were used to ferry ARVN
troops and their families and all of their pigs and chickens
around. They were full of patches from bullet holes.

The Air Force flew WWII era Douglas A26/B26 Invaders up
until Feb 1964. They carried 6,000 bomb loads and had up to
16 .50 Cal MGs. Then there were the B57 Canberras which the
Aussies also flew.

The mainstay of the USAF close air support effort were the
old ex Navy/USMC propjob AD-6 and AD-7 Skyraiders renamed
A-1E through A-1J. The Marines retired the last Skyraider
squadron out of NAS Memphis in the early 60's. The Navy
still flew them off of carriers in the Tonkin Gulf until
late 1965???

And of course, the spooks had a slew of C-47 and C-23 cargo
haulers.



  #33  
Old February 11th 04, 01:38 AM
B2431
external usenet poster
 
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Default

From: "* * Chas"

snip

DOH! we were loosing them at an extremely high rate.


It's spelled "losing."

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
  #34  
Old February 11th 04, 01:50 AM
Kevin Brooks
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Posts: n/a
Default


"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
hlink.net...

"* * Chas" wrote in message
om...

We had 2 R4Ds at Danang in 1964-65 (C47 also known as DC3).


There were no R4Ds in 1964-65, and it was C-47 and DC-3.



The Air Force flew WWII era Douglas A26/B26 Invaders up
until Feb 1964. They carried 6,000 bomb loads and had up to
16 .50 Cal MGs. Then there were the B57 Canberras which the
Aussies also flew.


It's A-26, B-26, and B-57, and the WWII era B-26 was out of the inventory
shortly after WWII ended.


But they then reclassed the A-26 Invader to become the B-26 Invader once the
Marauder was gone.

"In June of 1948, the A-26B was redesignated B-26B. There was no danger of
confusion with the Martin B-26 Marauder, since that aircraft was by that
time out of service." http://home.att.net/~jbaugher4/a26_3.html

Brooks




And of course, the spooks had a slew of C-47 and C-23 cargo
haulers.


C-123.




  #35  
Old February 11th 04, 02:02 AM
Steven P. McNicoll
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Default


"Kevin Brooks" wrote in message
...

But they then reclassed the A-26 Invader to become the B-26
Invader once the Marauder was gone.


That's correct, and so is my statement.


  #36  
Old February 11th 04, 05:30 AM
Ron
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

...

The following was extracted from http://www.greaterthings.com

"At this point in the Vietnam War, the US Air Force desperately needed
additional F-102 pilots to fly the dangerous reconnaissance missions so
important to the fate of American troops on the ground. With only a small
amount of solo flying experience, Bush applied for a voluntary three
month Vietnam tour, perhaps counting on preferential treatment once
again to overcome his lack of readiness, or perhaps safe in the
knowledge that his request would certainly be rejected."


Was it from some Black Ops super secret RF-102?

Maybe it was there at Groom Lake along with those YF-12s that Daryl Hunt saw


Ron
Pilot/Wildland Firefighter

  #37  
Old February 11th 04, 08:24 PM
dougdrivr
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Default


"Fred the Red Shirt" wrote in message
om...
"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message

thlink.net...
"Fred the Red Shirt" wrote in message
om...

During the Vietnam War, National Guard troops stayed in the US
and were only activated for natural disasters and riot control.


That's not correct. On May 13, 1968, 12,234 Army National Guardsmen in

20
units from 17 states were mobilized for service during the Vietnam War.
Eight units deployed to Vietnam. One of them, Company D (Ranger), 151st
Infantry, Indiana National Guard, earned distinction as one of the most
highly decorated combat units of the war.

On January 25, 1968, eight ANG Tactical Fighter Squadrons and three

Tactical
Reconnaissance Squadrons were mobilized. A second callup on April 11

added
two Tactical Fighter Squadrons and an Aeromedical Airlift Squadron.

Four of
the fighter squadrons served in combat in Vietnam, flying F-100Cs.



Thanks.

Were those the only Guardsmen deployed in Vietnam. IF so,
T\that would mean that less than 5% of the troops who
served the US in Vietnam were activated National Guard. I
(also) don't know how many Guardsnmen there were in the US
but I will be careful in the future to say that _almost_
no guardsmen were deployed in Vietnam.


President Johnson called up the Guard and Reserves right after the USS
Pueblo was captured by the North Koreans in January 1968. While he
emphatically stated that the National Guard would not be sent to Viet Nam,
this was only partially true. The unit flags stayed in the US and the men
were sent to Viet Nam as replacements. In my Brigade ( the 69th Inf, mostly
from Kansas, Iowa, and Nebraska), 65% of the enlisted men and 95% of the
Officers were sent to Viet Nam. Thirty-seven members of the 69th were KIA
while serving in RVN. The number of wounded is not even mentioned.


  #38  
Old February 11th 04, 09:03 PM
Kevin Brooks
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"dougdrivr" wrote in message
...

"Fred the Red Shirt" wrote in message
om...
"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message

thlink.net...
"Fred the Red Shirt" wrote in message
om...

During the Vietnam War, National Guard troops stayed in the US
and were only activated for natural disasters and riot control.


That's not correct. On May 13, 1968, 12,234 Army National Guardsmen

in
20
units from 17 states were mobilized for service during the Vietnam

War.
Eight units deployed to Vietnam. One of them, Company D (Ranger),

151st
Infantry, Indiana National Guard, earned distinction as one of the

most
highly decorated combat units of the war.

On January 25, 1968, eight ANG Tactical Fighter Squadrons and three

Tactical
Reconnaissance Squadrons were mobilized. A second callup on April 11

added
two Tactical Fighter Squadrons and an Aeromedical Airlift Squadron.

Four of
the fighter squadrons served in combat in Vietnam, flying F-100Cs.



Thanks.

Were those the only Guardsmen deployed in Vietnam. IF so,
T\that would mean that less than 5% of the troops who
served the US in Vietnam were activated National Guard. I
(also) don't know how many Guardsnmen there were in the US
but I will be careful in the future to say that _almost_
no guardsmen were deployed in Vietnam.


President Johnson called up the Guard and Reserves right after the USS
Pueblo was captured by the North Koreans in January 1968. While he
emphatically stated that the National Guard would not be sent to Viet

Nam,
this was only partially true. The unit flags stayed in the US and the men
were sent to Viet Nam as replacements. In my Brigade ( the 69th Inf,

mostly
from Kansas, Iowa, and Nebraska), 65% of the enlisted men and 95% of the
Officers were sent to Viet Nam. Thirty-seven members of the 69th were KIA
while serving in RVN. The number of wounded is not even mentioned.


Interesting; I had thought the guys out of the Hawaii ARNG brigade were the
only ones who went through that kind of treatment. Incidents like your's
were a sore point in the relationship between the ARNG and active Army for a
long time. But FYI, a number of ARNG units, complete with flags, were indeed
deployed to Vietnam under that same mobilization effort. As another poster
has already mentioned, the INARNG's D-51st Inf Co (Ranger) was one, and a
few arty battalions and some CS/CSS units also made the trip. IIRC an arty
unit from the KYARNG was involved in a rather close fight when its firebase
came under attack. And IIRC those KIA's you mention were not included in the
ARNG KIA total for the war, since they were considered active component
individual fillers when they became casualties; ISTR the deployed Guard
units suffered just under one hundred KIA during their period in country.

Brooks




  #39  
Old February 12th 04, 02:23 AM
* * Chas
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote
in message
hlink.net.
...

"* * Chas" wrote in message
om...

We had 2 R4Ds at Danang in 1964-65 (C47 also known as

DC3).


There were no R4Ds in 1964-65, and it was C-47 and DC-3.



The Air Force flew WWII era Douglas A26/B26 Invaders up
until Feb 1964. They carried 6,000 bomb loads and had up

to
16 .50 Cal MGs. Then there were the B57 Canberras which

the
Aussies also flew.


It's A-26, B-26, and B-57, and the WWII era B-26 was out

of the inventory
shortly after WWII ended.


Nope, read your history. There were 2 different planes with
the B-26 designation. The original was the Martin Marauder
that had a round body. The Douglas A-26 Invader was designed
as an attack bomber thus the A-26 designation. They had a
somewhat square shaped body.

They were used extensively in Korea and at some point were
redesignated B-26 for use in Vietnam where they served until
1964 in close air support roles. With 16 .50 cals, they were
the predicesors to the Puffs.

They were eventually all sent to Clark AFB in the Philipines
and scraped because the wings were failing from the stress
of hard turns at high speeds at low altitudes with heavy
bomb loads.

The B-57 was the US adaptation of English Electric's
Canberra twin engine jet bomber. It was selected by the Air
Force in 1951 to fulfil the requirement for a night bomber.
They were built by Martin and didn't enter US service until
1954-55.
They eventually served many roll in the USAF.

See http://www.b-57canberra.org/

And of course, the spooks had a slew of C-47 and C-23

cargo
haulers.

C-123.


Ya, I meant C-123, see, I said "the spooks". They also took
a liking to the old Fairchild C119 "Flying Boxcars". As I
said, they flew anything that they could get off the ground.




  #40  
Old February 12th 04, 03:27 AM
Steven P. McNicoll
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Default


"* * Chas" wrote in message
om...

Nope, read your history. There were 2 different planes with
the B-26 designation. The original was the Martin Marauder
that had a round body. The Douglas A-26 Invader was designed
as an attack bomber thus the A-26 designation. They had a
somewhat square shaped body.


Oh? What part of the history did I get wrong? Yes, there were two
different airplanes that were designated B-26, but they weren't both
designated B-26 during World War II. The B-26 of WWII was the Martin
Marauder, the Douglas Invader was designated A-26 throughout WWII. The
Marauder was out of the inventory by 1946, the Douglas Invader served
considerably longer.


 




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