Hotellier connections

Ahhh, that fall season is upon us...as hours in the
air decrease, the semi-annual return of the PCC, PW5
and 2-33 threads reappear Other groups have guns,
religion and politics as their old standbys.

Although some might see Mark's post as a troll attempt...I
think he makes some interesting points. IIRC on the
HP site, an analysis was done that 1 in 1,000 hottelier
connections are done incorrectly...not sure how that
data was collected. Attitudes on PCC's seem to be
1.) I have done it safely for years, others should
be able too.
2.) I used to think (1.) until almost killed by disconnect.
3.) It's a crappy design and I ain't going near it.

I am a #3 guy myself.



At 02:42 23 September 2004, Mark James Boyd wrote:

I think the best way to do this isn't mirrors or safety
pins
or PCCs or bits of string or feel or training or flashlights....

I prefer a big ass port (or two) that lets you look
directly at
the entire connection from all sides.

If the designer made an ity-bity port, and you have
to rely
on a PCC because you can't see the dang connection
close up,
then that's just a crappy design. If the fuse is really
so flimsy the port has to be 5 inches wide instead
of 8 or 9 inches,
and it can't be right near the connection, then the
designer needs
to go to the drawing board.

The Pegasus elevator connection is out in the breeze,
and real easy to
visually inspect. If anyone ever failed a PCC of that
elevator
connection, I'd have to recommend they do the connection
inspection
next time with eyes open, perhaps with their bifocals
on, during
daylight hours.

I think the (over)emphasis on a PCC is bunk. The connection

inspection is the key. If I'm ever in a situation

where a PCC discovers something, I'll either not fly
that glider
again (the design doesn't allow good enough direct
connection
inspections) or I'll not fly ANY gliders (since I'm
too stupid
or too hurried to look right at a connection and determine
if it's
connected).

The exception to this is something like the bellcrank
failure that
happened last year to a dive brake during a PCC. No
connection
inspection is going to find that. But one wonders
if the
tens of thousands of PCCs CAUSED the failure itself,
by wearing
out the bellcrank faster...
--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

Good post Stew, indeed winter is not too far away.
Automatic control hook-up's is the final answer, but
we still have a bunch of sailplanes out there without
the final solution. I have twice failed to hook up
the outboard flap connections on our ASH-25 (now sold).
Both times I was talking to someone and reverted to
my Nimbus 3, habit patern where there is only 2 connections
to be made, both after the wing is completely in place.
The ASH-25 requires the flap connection to be made
while the wing is about 2 inches from mating and then
2 more connections after sliding the wing all the way
into the inboard sections. In both cases, I found my
mistake in the PCC.

If I may start the winter season with a political remark,
How about adjoining jail cells for Martha Stewart ans
Dan Rather?

At 16:42 23 September 2004, Stewart Kissel wrote:
Ahhh, that fall season is upon us...as hours in the
air decrease, the semi-annual return of the PCC, PW5
and 2-33 threads reappear Other groups have guns,
religion and politics as their old standbys.

Although some might see Mark's post as a troll attempt...I
think he makes some interesting points. IIRC on the
HP site, an analysis was done that 1 in 1,000 hottelier
connections are done incorrectly...not sure how that
data was collected. Attitudes on PCC's seem to be
1.) I have done it safely for years, others should
be able too.
2.) I used to think (1.) until almost killed by disconnect.
3.) It's a crappy design and I ain't going near it.

I am a #3 guy myself.



At 02:42 23 September 2004, Mark James Boyd wrote:

I think the best way to do this isn't mirrors or safety
pins
or PCCs or bits of string or feel or training or flashlights....

I prefer a big ass port (or two) that lets you look
directly at
the entire connection from all sides.

If the designer made an ity-bity port, and you have
to rely
on a PCC because you can't see the dang connection
close up,
then that's just a crappy design. If the fuse is really
so flimsy the port has to be 5 inches wide instead
of 8 or 9 inches,
and it can't be right near the connection, then the
designer needs
to go to the drawing board.

The Pegasus elevator connection is out in the breeze,
and real easy to
visually inspect. If anyone ever failed a PCC of that
elevator
connection, I'd have to recommend they do the connection
inspection
next time with eyes open, perhaps with their bifocals
on, during
daylight hours.

I think the (over)emphasis on a PCC is bunk. The connection

inspection is the key. If I'm ever in a situation

where a PCC discovers something, I'll either not fly
that glider
again (the design doesn't allow good enough direct
connection
inspections) or I'll not fly ANY gliders (since I'm
too stupid
or too hurried to look right at a connection and determine
if it's
connected).

The exception to this is something like the bellcrank
failure that
happened last year to a dive brake during a PCC. No
connection
inspection is going to find that. But one wonders
if the
tens of thousands of PCCs CAUSED the failure itself,
by wearing
out the bellcrank faster...
--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

John Sinclair wrote:


If I may start the winter season with a political remark,
How about adjoining jail cells for Martha Stewart ans
Dan Rather?

If we are going to jail people for using poorly authenticated
information, we could start at the top of the food chain, couldn't we?


--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

If I may start the winter season with a political remark,
How about adjoining jail cells for Martha Stewart ans
Dan Rather?

If we are going to jail people for using poorly authenticated
information, we could start at the top of the food chain, couldn't we?

Ohmigod...I saw "The Daily Show" with John Stewart on Comedy Central
yesterday. I had tears it was so funny.

I dunno if we could get him to do a show on Hotelliers, unless
their the Hilton sisters...


--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

How about adjoining jail cells for Martha Stewart ans
Dan Rather?

I think Jay Leno got it right .......

Dan Rather is defending the documents as 'fake but
accurate',
doesn't that sounds more like breasts in California?...'fake
but accurate'



At 18:00 23 September 2004, John Sinclair wrote:
Good post Stew, indeed winter is not too far away.
Automatic control hook-up's is the final answer, but
we still have a bunch of sailplanes out there without
the final solution. I have twice failed to hook up
the outboard flap connections on our ASH-25 (now sold).
Both times I was talking to someone and reverted to
my Nimbus 3, habit patern where there is only 2 connections
to be made, both after the wing is completely in place.
The ASH-25 requires the flap connection to be made
while the wing is about 2 inches from mating and then
2 more connections after sliding the wing all the way
into the inboard sections. In both cases, I found my
mistake in the PCC.

If I may start the winter season with a political remark,
How about adjoining jail cells for Martha Stewart ans
Dan Rather?

At 16:42 23 September 2004, Stewart Kissel wrote:
Ahhh, that fall season is upon us...as hours in the
air decrease, the semi-annual return of the PCC, PW5
and 2-33 threads reappear Other groups have guns,
religion and politics as their old standbys.

Although some might see Mark's post as a troll attempt...I
think he makes some interesting points. IIRC on the
HP site, an analysis was done that 1 in 1,000 hottelier
connections are done incorrectly...not sure how that
data was collected. Attitudes on PCC's seem to be
1.) I have done it safely for years, others should
be able too.
2.) I used to think (1.) until almost killed by disconnect.
3.) It's a crappy design and I ain't going near it.

I am a #3 guy myself.



At 02:42 23 September 2004, Mark James Boyd wrote:

I think the best way to do this isn't mirrors or safety
pins
or PCCs or bits of string or feel or training or flashlights....

I prefer a big ass port (or two) that lets you look
directly at
the entire connection from all sides.

If the designer made an ity-bity port, and you have
to rely
on a PCC because you can't see the dang connection
close up,
then that's just a crappy design. If the fuse is really
so flimsy the port has to be 5 inches wide instead
of 8 or 9 inches,
and it can't be right near the connection, then the
designer needs
to go to the drawing board.

The Pegasus elevator connection is out in the breeze,
and real easy to
visually inspect. If anyone ever failed a PCC of that
elevator
connection, I'd have to recommend they do the connection
inspection
next time with eyes open, perhaps with their bifocals
on, during
daylight hours.

I think the (over)emphasis on a PCC is bunk. The connection

inspection is the key. If I'm ever in a situation

where a PCC discovers something, I'll either not fly
that glider
again (the design doesn't allow good enough direct
connection
inspections) or I'll not fly ANY gliders (since I'm
too stupid
or too hurried to look right at a connection and determine
if it's
connected).

The exception to this is something like the bellcrank
failure that
happened last year to a dive brake during a PCC. No
connection
inspection is going to find that. But one wonders
if the
tens of thousands of PCCs CAUSED the failure itself,
by wearing
out the bellcrank faster...
--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

Wow, I didn't realize there was aversion by some against
L'hotellier fittings and even refusal to fly gliders
that use them.

Hmm, I guess if it's possible to put a 'dualie' landing
gear on a Libelle H201, then it's bound to be possible
to retrofit L'Hotelier fittings with automatic connections.
Of course, the cost to do so on something like my
LS-1d would be about the same as the total value of
the glider. Or a lot more.

Since I can't make the jump to a ship with automatic
connections, I'll continue to fly mine, but not before
I make a Positive Control Check after assembly.

Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina, USA
LS-1d, 'W8'

"Ray Lovinggood" wrote in message
...
Wow, I didn't realize there was aversion by some against
L'hotellier fittings and even refusal to fly gliders
that use them.

Hmm, I guess if it's possible to put a 'dualie' landing
gear on a Libelle H201, then it's bound to be possible
to retrofit L'Hotelier fittings with automatic connections.
Of course, the cost to do so on something like my
LS-1d would be about the same as the total value of
the glider. Or a lot more.

Since I can't make the jump to a ship with automatic
connections, I'll continue to fly mine, but not before
I make a Positive Control Check after assembly.

Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina, USA
LS-1d, 'W8'


Does anybody have a first person story of a L'Hotellier fitting coming loose
when it was CERTAIN that it was connected and safetied correctly in the
first place?

I attach and safety pin mine by feel and then check them visually and by
tugging at right angles on each one in turn. Then I also do a PCC.

Bill Daniels

The whole issue with the safety pins was a rather 'knee jerk" reaction
rather than a cure.
I don't honestly know of any of these connections when proper connected
(that's the catch, so to speak) with or without safety pins installed...for
years gliders with these connections never used the safety pins...the
problem lies with the connectors not getting proper attached in the first
place, and that is something rather easy to do, they can 'appear" to be
connected and not fully connected...if the fittings are not worn out
(subject of another AD note to measure these balls and sockets) then they
don't become disconnected...many (most) gliders that used these fittings
also however had them in such a location they were installed mostly by brail
since you had to feel your way into a location that was many times
impossible to see.... LS even went to the smoke and mirrors (less the smoke)
method by installing tiny mirrors on the aft bulkheads so you could see the
connections..
the L'Hotellier connections were simply a not nice way of connecting
essential flight controls, several gliders have crashed when they became
disconnected (never properly connected) and people died because of
these....and, probably will in the future as well.
Even some earlier gliders used "pip" pins for control connections, these
were much better than the L'Hotellier fittings.....now, and in the future,
every manufacturer should and most do use automatic connections....
tim



Does anybody have a first person story of a L'Hotellier fitting coming
loose
when it was CERTAIN that it was connected and safetied correctly in the
first place?

I attach and safety pin mine by feel and then check them visually and by
tugging at right angles on each one in turn. Then I also do a PCC.

Bill Daniels

My observation is that the only way to insure they are properly connected is
by feel.

If the cup is only partially engaged with the ball, the fitting will feel
stiff. With the cup fully over the ball and the tab fully seated, the
fitting will easily rotate on the ball with just finger pressure.

When you KNOW a fitting is properly attached, run your finger tip over the
opening of the cup to feel the position of the ball in the cup. When you
learn what a good connection feels like, it's very easy to feel when the
ball is not properly seated.

I take some comfort in the fact that my L'Hotellier fittings are much harder
to get off than on.

Oh yes, I also clean them with solvent and re-lube them regularly.

Bill Daniels


"Tim Mara" wrote in message
...
The whole issue with the safety pins was a rather 'knee jerk" reaction
rather than a cure.
I don't honestly know of any of these connections when proper connected
(that's the catch, so to speak) with or without safety pins
installed...for
years gliders with these connections never used the safety pins...the
problem lies with the connectors not getting proper attached in the first
place, and that is something rather easy to do, they can 'appear" to be
connected and not fully connected...if the fittings are not worn out
(subject of another AD note to measure these balls and sockets) then they
don't become disconnected...many (most) gliders that used these fittings
also however had them in such a location they were installed mostly by
brail
since you had to feel your way into a location that was many times
impossible to see.... LS even went to the smoke and mirrors (less the
smoke)
method by installing tiny mirrors on the aft bulkheads so you could see
the
connections..
the L'Hotellier connections were simply a not nice way of connecting
essential flight controls, several gliders have crashed when they became
disconnected (never properly connected) and people died because of
these....and, probably will in the future as well.
Even some earlier gliders used "pip" pins for control connections, these
were much better than the L'Hotellier fittings.....now, and in the future,
every manufacturer should and most do use automatic connections....
tim



Does anybody have a first person story of a L'Hotellier fitting coming
loose
when it was CERTAIN that it was connected and safetied correctly in the
first place?

I attach and safety pin mine by feel and then check them visually and by
tugging at right angles on each one in turn. Then I also do a PCC.

Bill Daniels

Who are Martha Stewart and Dan Rather?

At 18:24 23 September 2004, Mark James Boyd wrote:
If I may start the winter season with a political
remark,
How about adjoining jail cells for Martha Stewart
ans
Dan Rather?

If we are going to jail people for using poorly authenticated

information, we could start at the top of the food
chain, couldn't we?

Ohmigod...I saw 'The Daily Show' with John Stewart
on Comedy Central
yesterday. I had tears it was so funny.

I dunno if we could get him to do a show on Hotelliers,
unless
their the Hilton sisters...


--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd