Night over water

I left MYR (Myrtle Beach, SC) last night about 8PM, departing on rwy 18. A
VFR aircraft departed just before me, and he got departure instructions of
turn north on course as soon as able (over the land). I was continued 180
after takeoff on an IFR flight plan. I was about 1/2mile out over the water
before I got turned back inland and oncourse. I never seem to be able to
shake that feeling of 'wow' when I fly out over the ocean at night. Its so
very dark.

I was wondering if controllers intentionally steer VFR flights away from
this, and steer them toward land earlier?

My wife says she feels like she is going to fall off the earth out there.

Stuart

"Stuart King" wrote in message
...
| I left MYR (Myrtle Beach, SC) last night about 8PM, departing on rwy 18.
A
| VFR aircraft departed just before me, and he got departure instructions
of
| turn north on course as soon as able (over the land). I was continued 180
| after takeoff on an IFR flight plan. I was about 1/2mile out over the
water
| before I got turned back inland and oncourse. I never seem to be able to
| shake that feeling of 'wow' when I fly out over the ocean at night. Its
so
| very dark.
|
| I was wondering if controllers intentionally steer VFR flights away from
| this, and steer them toward land earlier?
|
| My wife says she feels like she is going to fall off the earth out there.

As an IFR pilot, you're qualified to fly without visual references to the
horizon (e.g., over the ocean, facing away from land, at night). A VFR pilot
isn't (e.g., JFK Jr.). Sounds like common sense to me.

Yes, I am qualified. I am, however, going to maintain a healthy respect for
all things that have killed others. A VFR pilot is also allowed to fly over
the water at night in the US, as long as he maintains vis/cloud separation.

I guess what I was wondering is if controllers are aware of the night VFR
over water hazard and if so, do they make special allowances for this.

SK
CP IA -EI EI O


As an IFR pilot, you're qualified to fly without visual references to the
horizon (e.g., over the ocean, facing away from land, at night). A VFR
pilot
isn't (e.g., JFK Jr.). Sounds like common sense to me.

And the Canadian (CARS) perspective:

602.114 No person shall operate an aircraft in VFR flight within controlled
airspace unless
(a) the aircraft is operated with visual reference to the surface;
(b) flight visibility is not less than three miles;
(c) the distance of the aircraft from cloud is not less than 500 feet
vertically and one mile horizontally; and
(d) where the aircraft is operated within a control zone,
(i) when reported, ground visibility is not less than three miles, and
(ii) except when taking off or landing, the distance of the aircraft from
the surface is not less than 500 feet.

602.114 (a) in the CARS implies that visual reference to the surface is
required for VFR pilots. Flying over the ocean (or low altitude over the
Great Lakes for that matter), at night, is very likely to put that
requirement in serious doubt. IMHO, a controller wouldn't deliberately give
a VFR pilot a vector that the pilot would have to refuse on the basis of
flying into IMC, according the definition in the regs. A pilot on an IFR
flight plan isn't subject to that. I don't think it's a hazard issue for VFR
pilots as much as a regulation issue.

"Stuart King" wrote in message
m...
| Yes, I am qualified. I am, however, going to maintain a healthy respect
for
| all things that have killed others. A VFR pilot is also allowed to fly
over
| the water at night in the US, as long as he maintains vis/cloud
separation.
|
| I guess what I was wondering is if controllers are aware of the night VFR
| over water hazard and if so, do they make special allowances for this.
|
| SK
| CP IA -EI EI O
|
|
| As an IFR pilot, you're qualified to fly without visual references to
the
| horizon (e.g., over the ocean, facing away from land, at night). A VFR
| pilot
| isn't (e.g., JFK Jr.). Sounds like common sense to me.
|
|

Are you suggesting that flying over the water at night is not VFR? By your
logic, all night flying is not VFR, since CAR 602.114(a) states that the
aircraft must be operated with visual reference to the surface, which is
difficult over land as well when its dark. Is this why Canada has a night
rating?

"Randy at Home" wrote in
message
. cable.rogers.com...
And the Canadian (CARS) perspective:

602.114 No person shall operate an aircraft in VFR flight within
controlled
airspace unless
(a) the aircraft is operated with visual reference to the surface;
(b) flight visibility is not less than three miles;
(c) the distance of the aircraft from cloud is not less than 500 feet
vertically and one mile horizontally; and
(d) where the aircraft is operated within a control zone,
(i) when reported, ground visibility is not less than three miles, and
(ii) except when taking off or landing, the distance of the aircraft from
the surface is not less than 500 feet.

602.114 (a) in the CARS implies that visual reference to the surface is
required for VFR pilots. Flying over the ocean (or low altitude over the
Great Lakes for that matter), at night, is very likely to put that
requirement in serious doubt. IMHO, a controller wouldn't deliberately
give
a VFR pilot a vector that the pilot would have to refuse on the basis of
flying into IMC, according the definition in the regs. A pilot on an IFR
flight plan isn't subject to that. I don't think it's a hazard issue for
VFR
pilots as much as a regulation issue.

"Stuart King" wrote in message
m...
| Yes, I am qualified. I am, however, going to maintain a healthy respect
for
| all things that have killed others. A VFR pilot is also allowed to fly
over
| the water at night in the US, as long as he maintains vis/cloud
separation.
|
| I guess what I was wondering is if controllers are aware of the night
VFR
| over water hazard and if so, do they make special allowances for this.
|
| SK
| CP IA -EI EI O
|
|
| As an IFR pilot, you're qualified to fly without visual references to
the
| horizon (e.g., over the ocean, facing away from land, at night). A VFR
| pilot
| isn't (e.g., JFK Jr.). Sounds like common sense to me.
|
|

"Brad Z" wrote in
news:aDEVb.208748$nt4.986888@attbi_s51:

Are you suggesting that flying over the water at night is
not VFR?

I do this for a living, and I'm here to tell you that flying
over water at night is mostly *NOT* VMC. If you're not capable
of, and completely prepared for, flying on instruments, you had
best not be there. People die that way. Not that long ago, a
very experienced helicopter pilot died trying to fly VFR in a
Robinson offshore at night. On a dark night with no surface
lights, it's just like being inside cloud - there is absolutely
no horizon for reference. We only fly in IFR-capable aircraft
with an IFR-current crew. I wouldn't do it alone.

--
Regards,

Stan

On Mon, 09 Feb 2004 05:10:31 GMT, "Brad Z"
wrote:

Are you suggesting that flying over the water at night is not VFR? By your
logic, all night flying is not VFR, since CAR 602.114(a) states that the
aircraft must be operated with visual reference to the surface, which is
difficult over land as well when its dark. Is this why Canada has a night
rating?

There are large areas of Canada and the upper peninsula of Michigan
where the ground is absolutely invisible at night and it is strictly
"on the gauges".

I'm sure there are many other sparsely populated areas around the US
where it just isn't possible to fly at night and maintain visual
reference to the ground/surface/something.

For example, I took off from Newberry after dark. I looked up after
the runway lights disappeared under the wing and could
see...absolutely nothing. I thought I had flown into a cloud.

I immediately went on the gauges and called.
Uhhhh...Minneapolis Center, I'd like to activate my IFR flight plan.
It was cleared as filed, direct from Newberry to Midland @ 7000.
I love that "Cleared as filed. Climb to and maintain 7000, proceed on
course".

It was only after passing though 5000 I realized I could see scattered
lights on the ground. Looking back over my shoulder I could see the
lights of Newberry in the distance. By the time I reached 7000 I
could see a number of cities in the distance. It was actually a
beautiful clear evening with unlimited visibility for most of the
trip. Some where between Grayling and Houghton Lake a full moon
peaked over the Eastern horizon. What a beautiful site.

No moon, and no lights in my frame of reference. It was strictly on
the gauges from take off until I reached 5000. After that it was like
any other night flight, except periodically I'd receive a call from
Minneapolis Center. I don't remember hearing another plane on
frequency for the whole trip. I landed at Midland (3BS) right at
11:00 PM.

The point though is, had I not been instrument rated, or at least
proficient on the gauges, I would have been in deep doggie do with no
visual reference when in reality, ceiling and visibility were
unlimited.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

"Randy at Home" wrote in
message
.cable.rogers.com...
And the Canadian (CARS) perspective:

602.114 No person shall operate an aircraft in VFR flight within
controlled
airspace unless
(a) the aircraft is operated with visual reference to the surface;

In the US we just need a visual reference.

(b) flight visibility is not less than three miles;
(c) the distance of the aircraft from cloud is not less than 500 feet
vertically and one mile horizontally; and
(d) where the aircraft is operated within a control zone,
(i) when reported, ground visibility is not less than three miles, and
(ii) except when taking off or landing, the distance of the aircraft from
the surface is not less than 500 feet.

602.114 (a) in the CARS implies that visual reference to the surface is
required for VFR pilots. Flying over the ocean (or low altitude over the
Great Lakes for that matter), at night, is very likely to put that
requirement in serious doubt. IMHO, a controller wouldn't deliberately
give
a VFR pilot a vector that the pilot would have to refuse on the basis of
flying into IMC, according the definition in the regs. A pilot on an IFR
flight plan isn't subject to that. I don't think it's a hazard issue for
VFR
pilots as much as a regulation issue.

"Stuart King" wrote in message
m...
| Yes, I am qualified. I am, however, going to maintain a healthy respect
for
| all things that have killed others. A VFR pilot is also allowed to fly
over
| the water at night in the US, as long as he maintains vis/cloud
separation.
|
| I guess what I was wondering is if controllers are aware of the night
VFR
| over water hazard and if so, do they make special allowances for this.
|
| SK
| CP IA -EI EI O
|
|
| As an IFR pilot, you're qualified to fly without visual references to
the
| horizon (e.g., over the ocean, facing away from land, at night). A VFR
| pilot
| isn't (e.g., JFK Jr.). Sounds like common sense to me.
|
|

"Stuart King" wrote in message om...
Yes, I am qualified. I am, however, going to maintain a healthy respect for
all things that have killed others. A VFR pilot is also allowed to fly over
the water at night in the US, as long as he maintains vis/cloud separation.

I guess what I was wondering is if controllers are aware of the night VFR
over water hazard and if so, do they make special allowances for this.

I hope not. I don't want controllers screwing around with my vectors
because some guys aren't comfortable on the gauges.

"Stuart King" wrote in message
m...
Yes, I am qualified. I am, however, going to maintain a healthy respect
for
all things that have killed others. A VFR pilot is also allowed to fly
over
the water at night in the US, as long as he maintains vis/cloud
separation.

I guess what I was wondering is if controllers are aware of the night VFR
over water hazard and if so, do they make special allowances for this.

You are responsible for only going when it is safe to do so. The controller
is concerned with traffic flows. However, if you ask the controller may be
able to give you an early turn.

Stuart King ) wrote:

I was wondering if controllers intentionally steer VFR flights away
from this, and steer them toward land earlier?

Or perhaps the controller was simply separating your aircraft from the VFR
aircraft?


--
Peter


























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