insurance: vote with your $

My P Baron was a LOT less than that; Of course, it hasn't been fixed yet,
either.
$7.7K premium, $500 deductable, $375K on the hull.
H.
N502TB

"G.R. Patterson III" wrote in message
...


misha wrote:

After being hit with a $15K premium with a $10K deductable, ...

On what?

George Patterson
The optimist feels that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The
pessimist is afraid that he's correct.
James Branch Cavel

In article ,
H. Adam Stevens wrote:
You're not Ben Jackson the ex insurance agent are you?

No. I only brought up the 100 hour point because I called an insurance
broker while thinking about buying a plane, and the difference between
100h and =100h was such that you'd save money by by getting in a rental
and orbiting the field for 15-20 hours if necessary.

--
Ben Jackson

http://www.ben.com/

("misha" wrote)
snip
How many of you would dare to own a new a/c without having a full hull
value coverage?

If you "own" the plane outright, then your idea MIGHT work out for you
....only if you take those premiums and actually sock them away - just in
case something happens. Like an engine reserve account, only this is your
hull reserve account - IN THE BANK.

Remember to make the same ($$$) premium payments, only they go to YOUR bank
account (etc). It's a gamble.

Good luck

--
Montblack

"misha" wrote in message
...

I guess that tells you all you need to know about what the insurance
-it saves you money,
-it gives you good night sleep
-it is what everybody does?

I suspect most pilots have a loan against their airplane. Most (all?,
almost all?) airplane lenders require full insurance, so the decision tree
ends there for most pilots.

I have analyzed the situation myself and decided on the same thing for my
P210 -- liability and not-in-motion hull only.

Realize the "true" value of your potential worst-case insurance payout is
not the declared hull value but rather:

Declared Hull value minus (Premium + Deductible + Expected Salvage Value).
Consider that in most airplane accidents in which you walk away it is
probable that the salvage value would be at least half the declared hull
value, and then it becomes apparent that in-motion hull insurance often has
only marginal value.

In my case for commercial hull insurance last year the underwriter quoted 6%
of the hull value with a deductible of 3% of hull value. If we assume
salvage value would typically be 50% of the hull value, then I would pay a
6% annual premium for a policy which would have an expected maximum payout
of 100% - (6% + 3% + 50%), which means a 6% annual premium for an expected
maximum payout of 41%. Those odds sound more like gambling to me than
insurance -- at those odds, I thought the money was better invested in an
engine overhaul and other meticulous maintenance. Your numbers may vary,
but the idea stays the same.


--
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com

Leland Vandervort wrote:

On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 12:14:10 -0700, "Mike Rapoport"
wrote:
The insurance industry is not making a lot of money even at the new higher
rates, so don't expect them to decline soon. Personally I only carry
liability because I think that the hull coverage I have been offered is not
a good deal. Insurance pricing is a combination of premiums and how much
money the insurance company can make by investing those premiums before
there is a claim. Obviously the expected rate of return on those
investments is much lower than it was three years ago.

What plane are you trying to insure and what are your pilot qualifications?


Personally, for my insurance for my PA28R-200, with my PPL and 90
hours at the time of taking out the policy, only 4 hours on type, they
quoted me £1750 (UK Pounds, so about $3000 / year), for £40,000 hull,
£3 million public liability, £7.5 million crown liability (for
government aerodromes) and a few other liabilities for various other
countries. Deductible is only £500. I can't complain as this is even
less premium than the car I sold to buy the airplane.

In Australia, I'm paying about AUD 4400 for a hull value of AUD 85000
and AUD 2 million public liability. Deductible is 1% of hull value.
(1 AUD is about 0.65 USD and about 0.4 GBP)

"Ron Natalie" wrote in message om...
"misha" wrote in message ...

I though that chances of survival are pretty slim in a total loss event
in flight - I hope to make it to Eden and not to be too worried about
the money part.

You can do a lot of damage to the aircraft and still survive. If you have a loan
secured by the aircraft, they will almost certianly want insurance to protect
their interests by the way.

True. In fact, the majority of airplane accidents are not fatal.
Been there, done that, was really glad I had hull insurance.

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)

"Montblack" wrote in message .. .


If you "own" the plane outright, then your idea MIGHT work out for you
...only if you take those premiums and actually sock them away - just in
case something happens. Like an engine reserve account, only this is your
hull reserve account - IN THE BANK.

You don't even need to maintain the reserve if you can live without a replacement
right away.

On 10-Jul-2003, "Mike Rapoport" wrote:

Obviously the expected rate of return on those
investments is much lower than it was three years ago.


I think you have identified the primary reason why premiums have been going
up recently. Certainly claims costs have not risen as fast. On the other
hand, in my case aircraft hull and liability insurance price is still
roughly comparable to auto insurance. For $85 hull (zero deductible) and
$1M smooth coverage on our Arrow IV we pay around $2200/year. For a car
worth about $18K, and adding a reasonable portion of the cost of $1M
umbrella liability insurance, I pay about $1100/year ($500 deductible). The
key is that all named pilots of the plane have at least several hundred
hours and, very significantly, all are instrument rated.

I was recently told by an insurance broker that for a typical aircraft
owner, the cost of getting an instrument rating (in your own plane) will be
returned in less than 3 years by reduced insurance premiums. Has anybody
seen their premiums go down after getting their IFR rating?

-Elliott Drucker

wrote in message
...

On 10-Jul-2003, "Mike Rapoport" wrote:

Obviously the expected rate of return on those
investments is much lower than it was three years ago.


I think you have identified the primary reason why premiums have been
going
up recently. Certainly claims costs have not risen as fast. On the other
hand, in my case aircraft hull and liability insurance price is still
roughly comparable to auto insurance. For $85 hull (zero deductible) and
$1M smooth coverage on our Arrow IV we pay around $2200/year. For a car
worth about $18K, and adding a reasonable portion of the cost of $1M
umbrella liability insurance, I pay about $1100/year ($500 deductible).
The
key is that all named pilots of the plane have at least several hundred
hours and, very significantly, all are instrument rated.

I was recently told by an insurance broker that for a typical aircraft
owner, the cost of getting an instrument rating (in your own plane) will
be
returned in less than 3 years by reduced insurance premiums. Has anybody
seen their premiums go down after getting their IFR rating?

-Elliott Drucker

To return the cost if an instrument rating in 3 years the insurance company
would have to pay me about $1,000 a year. Not going to happen.

"Javier Henderson" wrote in message
...

writes:

But that figure might be different for other airplanes (say, hi
perf complex, or more expensive, etc).

From what I have observed with many students/owners, insurance reductions
for any type of ratings or recurrent training are usually negligible.

What happens instead is that for certain combinations of airplane and pilot
experience, the insurers simply refuse to write the policies at all unless
the pilots get an instrument rating or undergo recurrent training.

As the insurance market tightens, one effect is that insurers have also
begun requiring recurrent training on more and more airplanes. This does
not mean that these pilots get a discount for their recurrent training; the
training simply becomes a condition of insurance.



--
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com