I am Interested in Soaring Instruction (US Private PilotCertification)

I do not hold any FAA ratings and I am considering instruction to
obtain a Private Pilot Glider certification, so gliders will be my
introduction to aviation. I live in the Los Angeles area and have a
few concerns:

1. Safety -

a) After reviewing the NTSA accident database, it seems that most
of the fatal accidents are related to stalls during a launch abort
(the reports don't say stall explicitly) and medical distress. So it
seems that pilots attempt to turn back for a landing with insufficient
air speed, rather than land forward.

b) The congested airspace of the L.A. area means that mid-air
collisions are a reality, but I don't read about radio or transponder
usage in gliders (at least equipment descriptions on club/instructor
websites). See and avoidance of gliders by high velocity aircraft
pilots doesn't seem to be a realistic expectation.

2. Instruction - I am wondering if starting by taking 5 days of
intensive training at an out-of-state glider school followed by bi-
weekly club instruction at a local club is a good approach to just bi-
weekly instruction.

3. Local Glider Ports - Unfortunately, an airfield in the Los Angeles
area (Hemet-Ryan) is due to terminate glider usage in October. That
leaves Lake Elsinore as the closest glider port. But the loss will be
in instruction alternatives, since all glider clubs and schools at
Hemet-Ryan will need to re-organize and find a new facilty.

4. Flexibility of Instruction - A normal course of instruction is a
given, however I may want to instruction in a specific area or event
in addition to the usual course, such as stall recovery from an under-
banked, over-ruddered slow speed turn, which may not be covered by the
instructor.

5. Fun - With all of the safety instruction, study material,
situational awareness, airspace scanning, etc., there must be some
enjoyment of the sport and I believe there is, otherwise I would not
give it any consideration.


Any feedback will be appreciated.

On Aug 29, 8:30*pm, John Allen wrote:
I do not hold any FAA ratings and I am considering instruction to
obtain a Private Pilot Glider certification, so gliders will be my
introduction to aviation.

Good choice, it's less expensive, and I believe that it will make you
a more flexible pilot should to move on you powered flight.

I live in the Los Angeles area and have a
few concerns:

1. Safety -

* * a) After reviewing the NTSA accident database, it seems that most
of the fatal accidents are related to stalls during a launch abort
(the reports don't say stall explicitly) and medical distress. So it
seems that pilots attempt to turn back for a landing with insufficient
air speed, rather than land forward.

This is pilot error... airspeed is the first thing which needs to be
addressed as soon as a disconnect/break happens. It's as simple as
pushing the stick forward but you have to remember to do it.

* * b) The congested airspace of the L.A. area means that mid-air
collisions are a reality, but I don't read about radio or transponder
usage in gliders (at least equipment descriptions on club/instructor
websites). See and avoidance of gliders by high velocity aircraft
pilots doesn't seem to be a realistic expectation.

Transponder requirements depend upon altitude and airspace... so
depending on where you fly a transponder may or may not be necessary.
It seems to me that most glider ports are further out from the city
(where landouts are possible) therefore there is usually less traffic
as well but this is not always the case.


2. Instruction - I am wondering if starting by taking 5 days of
intensive training at an out-of-state glider school followed by bi-
weekly club instruction at a local club is a good approach to just bi-
weekly instruction.

I am a new pilot, soloed in June and am still studying for the written
exam. I flew one day every other weekend for 6 months. I generally
did 2 flights per day in the beginning (two tows to 3000) and as I
progressed to patterns (tow to 1200, and land) I did 4 or 5 in a day
as they were cheaper. I generally planned to spend about $200 per
training day... which meant 2 or 4 flights depending on the altitude.

3. Local Glider Ports - Unfortunately, an airfield in the Los Angeles
area (Hemet-Ryan) is due to terminate glider usage in October. That
leaves Lake Elsinore as the closest glider port. But the loss will be
in instruction alternatives, since all glider clubs and schools at
Hemet-Ryan will need to re-organize and find a new facilty.

Can't comment on this one...


4. Flexibility of Instruction - A normal course of instruction is a
given, however I may want to instruction in a specific area or event
in addition to the usual course, such as stall recovery from an under-
banked, over-ruddered slow speed turn, which may not be covered by the
instructor.

Stalls and spins will be definitely be covered as well as anything
else you ask the instructor to demonstrate.


5. Fun - With all of the safety instruction, study material,
situational awareness, airspace scanning, etc., there must be some
enjoyment of the sport and I believe there is, otherwise I would not
give it any consideration.

You will probably find that the enjoyment increases with your
experience. On my "intro" I had fun, but it was not particularly
exciting and I was sort of indifferent. Once I started learning more
about flying, such as maintaining tow position, recovering from
stalls, setting up for landing, landing, etc, the enjoyment increased
substantially... and my first solo well... you'll see what that's
like... very soul moving... thoughts interspersed with "dont die" haha
(kidding sort of).

I can offer one suggestion which may save you a lot of time and
money. Get "Condor" the glider simulator, and a stick and a set of
rudder pedals. Practice coordinated turns, maintaining tow position,
landing, forward slips, stalls, spins, and rope breaks on the
simulator and you will save at least $1500 in time during your
lessons. I flew so much in the sim, that I landed on my second and
third lesson and was doing the full patterns (tow, pattern and land)
on flight 8. I never had an "oh crap" moment or bad tow where the
instructor needed to take over... soloed on flight 24. It's not going
to make you any soaring superhero or anything, but it will certainly
help your hand eye coordination and let you make plenty of mistakes on
your own time, allowing you to progress much faster. You can also
practice those slow speed skids during approach. Condor is primarily a
multiplayer racing simulator which fun also... I spend a lot of time
racing the Europeans through the Swiss Alps. It helps me brush up on
my German too. I also have a condor scenery of my local area (central
florida) which helped greatly.. in the beginning just identifying the
airport can be a challenge after 10 minutes of flying around the
countryside. Flying around my local area in the sim helped me
memorize various lakes, roads, etc.

If you have any more specific beginner questions just email me, I
would be happy to share my (admittedly limited as of yet) experiences.

Tom

On Aug 29, 6:30*pm, John Allen wrote:
I do not hold any FAA ratings and I am considering instruction to
obtain a Private Pilot Glider certification, so gliders will be my
introduction to aviation. I live in the Los Angeles area and have a
few concerns:

That region probably has more glider pilots than any other geographic
area of the country.

1. Safety -

* * a) After reviewing the NTSA accident database, it seems that most
of the fatal accidents are related to stalls during a launch abort
(the reports don't say stall explicitly) and medical distress. So it
seems that pilots attempt to turn back for a landing with insufficient
air speed, rather than land forward.

I think more may have succumbed due to stall/spin accidents when in
the landing phase. I just reviewed a few years of the NTSB reports
filtered on gliders, 1962-pres and clearly this is the case. A
surprising number impacted near the top or sides of ridge lines during
cross country flight. Typically about 79% of the insurance claims
involve the landing phase of flight. Safety involves currency, skill,
and judgement.

* * b) The congested airspace of the L.A. area means that mid-air
collisions are a reality, but I don't read about radio or transponder
usage in gliders (at least equipment descriptions on club/instructor
websites). See and avoidance of gliders by high velocity aircraft
pilots doesn't seem to be a realistic expectation.

You won't be flying in controlled airspace. Fitting a transponder is
a personal option and recommended in high traffic areas where there
are significant soaring activities.

2. Instruction - I am wondering if starting by taking 5 days of
intensive training at an out-of-state glider school followed by bi-
weekly club instruction at a local club is a good approach to just bi-
weekly instruction.

You needn't go out of state for an intensive course of instruction.
Visit the SSA web site at ssa.org and check out the SSA business
members and/or the where-to-fly interactive map. That said, learning
requires reflection and age matters. In general, the younger the
better. I started at 28 and wish I'd started much younger. I did
solo on my 21st flight, which was the insurance minimum for the
country and club where I learned. These days there are very good
computer soaring simulators. They do very well except for the various
accelerations and decelerations involved in soaring flights. My
personal recommendation is up to three lessons per day, at least in
the early stages. Then do the reading and reflecting on what you been
taught. Avoid breaks between lessons of more than two weeks. After
that you will go backward a bit.

3. Local Glider Ports - Unfortunately, an airfield in the Los Angeles
area (Hemet-Ryan) is due to terminate glider usage in October. That
leaves Lake Elsinore as the closest glider port. But the loss will be
in instruction alternatives, since all glider clubs and schools at
Hemet-Ryan will need to re-organize and find a new facilty.

I hope you took time to attend the Hemet-Ryan support gathering today
as a member of the local community. If gliding does cease there, plan
on weekend trips to a facility further away. Most local pilots to
Hemet-Ryan fly longer cross-country flights from other sites in any
event.

4. Flexibility of Instruction - A normal course of instruction is a
given, however I may want to instruction in a specific area or event
in addition to the usual course, such as stall recovery from an under-
banked, over-ruddered slow speed turn, which may not be covered by the
instructor.

Recovery from unusual attitudes is an important part of the skill
set. I'm sure you'll get the experience. You will not solo until you
are safe to do so.

5. Fun - With all of the safety instruction, study material,
situational awareness, airspace scanning, etc., there must be some
enjoyment of the sport and I believe there is, otherwise I would not
give it any consideration.

Soaring belongs to the seekers. I called an expired SSA member to
find out why he'd lapsed. He was the president of a local Corvette
owners club. Basically he told me he gave soaring a week and hadn't
hacked it, so gave it up. It takes much more effort than that to
experience the majesties of the skies, but it also gives back a
lifetime of wonder and experience. The sporting aspect should be
central to your approach. That doesn't mean you have to go racing,
but the pursuit of goals and awards and personal achievements should
be up front.

Most of these folks are racing the sun and making best use of the
day's weather. A few are trying to top their country, region, state,
or club lists. Most are just having fun on a grand scale.
http://www.onlinecontest.org/olc-2.0...c=&df=&sp=2009

Frank Whiteley

Frank Whiteley wrote:

You won't be flying in controlled airspace.

He will be - unless he intends to fly only below 1100 (or in some cases
700) feet or other class G airspace. :-)

Tony

On Aug 31, 7:29*am, TonyV wrote:
Frank Whiteley wrote:
You won't be flying in controlled airspace. *

He will be - unless he intends to fly only below 1100 (or in some cases
700) feet or other class G airspace. :-)

Tony

Yeah, okay;^)

On Aug 31, 8:35*am, Frank Whiteley wrote:
On Aug 31, 7:29*am, TonyV wrote:

Frank Whiteley wrote:
You won't be flying in controlled airspace. *

He will be - unless he intends to fly only below 1100 (or in some cases
700) feet or other class G airspace. :-)

Tony

Yeah, okay;^)

Or above FL 600?

But seriously, for John, give it a try, and you might find it
incredibly addictive...

Kirk
66

On Aug 29, 5:30*pm, John Allen wrote:
I do not hold any FAA ratings and I am considering instruction to
obtain a Private Pilot Glider certification, so gliders will be my
introduction to aviation. I live in the Los Angeles area and have a
few concerns:

1. Safety -

* * a) After reviewing the NTSA accident database, it seems that most
of the fatal accidents are related to stalls during a launch abort
(the reports don't say stall explicitly) and medical distress. So it
seems that pilots attempt to turn back for a landing with insufficient
air speed, rather than land forward.

* * b) The congested airspace of the L.A. area means that mid-air
collisions are a reality, but I don't read about radio or transponder
usage in gliders (at least equipment descriptions on club/instructor
websites). See and avoidance of gliders by high velocity aircraft
pilots doesn't seem to be a realistic expectation.

2. Instruction - I am wondering if starting by taking 5 days of
intensive training at an out-of-state glider school followed by bi-
weekly club instruction at a local club is a good approach to just bi-
weekly instruction.

3. Local Glider Ports - Unfortunately, an airfield in the Los Angeles
area (Hemet-Ryan) is due to terminate glider usage in October. That
leaves Lake Elsinore as the closest glider port. But the loss will be
in instruction alternatives, since all glider clubs and schools at
Hemet-Ryan will need to re-organize and find a new facilty.

4. Flexibility of Instruction - A normal course of instruction is a
given, however I may want to instruction in a specific area or event
in addition to the usual course, such as stall recovery from an under-
banked, over-ruddered slow speed turn, which may not be covered by the
instructor.

5. Fun - With all of the safety instruction, study material,
situational awareness, airspace scanning, etc., there must be some
enjoyment of the sport and I believe there is, otherwise I would not
give it any consideration.

Any feedback will be appreciated.

John,

I think most Glider Pilots in the LA area are doing their training
outside of LA for the reasons you mentioned.

One advantage of taking flight training in that area however is that
you become accustomed to the radio
and airspace issues very early on.

Lake Elsinore Soaring Club has a lot of members from the southern LA
area.
It is a good training club as it has two tow planes, 3 2-33's, a
1-26, a 1-34 and a Pilatus B4.
You use Thermal, Ridge Lift and Convergence and on some occasions some
down stream Wave from the Palomar Mtns and others.
They also have quite a big field that provides ample flat terrain for
emergency landings.
Currently there are 3 instructors.

You also learn IFR flight on takeoff behind the towplane, since it has
a dirt runway. (IFR= I Follow Rope)

Hemet Soaring clubs unfortunately for all of us, seem to be loosing
their facility at the end of September.

Since there is a limit as to how many members Lake Elsinore can
support, and the extraneous members from the Hemet clubs
looking for a new home, it will be first come first served on that
facility.

Any well trained glider pilot should not have a problem with stalls on
aborted launches as we are trained how to deal
with that very thing before going solo.

The instructor simulates a rope break by releasing at 300' AGL and
seeing how the student reacts.
If he does not immediately shove the nose down to maintain airpseed
and do a well banked turn back to the runway then he is not ready
for solo and needs more instruction and practice.

In fact glider pilots freqently spend a great deal of time flying near
the stall and soon develop instinctive relexes to the glider starting
to stall or spin
and preventing it.

I do recommend a few sessions with spin training at an aerobatic
school as glider training in the US does not require that, but it
could save your life someday
having actually done a few proper spin recoveries. There is no
substitute for actual experience

In Canada where I was first trained we required actual spins.....after
the intial apprehension it was actually fun and a huge confidence
builder.

Gliders in the LA area are constrained to their allowed airpace, but
for numerous takeoff/landings that students will be doing there is
enough freedom to do that and stay clear of other traffic. Gliders do
have the right of way but being right does not gaurantee your safety.
Just look at the crazy drivers on the road.....some of them are pilots
as well.

Intesive training is good but flying every other weekend will slow
your progress tremendously. I know some people that train every other
weekend and it has taken them 2 years and they still don't have their
Private ticket yet.

If you commit to every weekend for 4 months you could be a licensed
pilot in 6.

Training in every conceivable attitude is common and there for the
asking. However its the instructors decision if fully develops spins
or other aerobatics are taught.

Fun is ensured by the student as you set your own pace for training.

Some days you just need to thermal or ridge soar and leave the
regimented stuff for another day.
Most instructors have no problem with this as it is really just
another way for them to see where they can help you improve.

Once you are to that stage and feeling confident, you are probably
ready to solo. Once soloed you will likely spend a lot more time on
the
fun stuff with perhaps a few tense moments now and then as your
judgement improves and your flying becomes more relaxed and fluid.

The first time you soar with a hawk will be cool, or when you hook
your first thermal alone without help and ride it up to the top.

Ray

Frank Whiteley wrote:
On Aug 31, 7:29 am, TonyV wrote:
Frank Whiteley wrote:
You won't be flying in controlled airspace.
He will be - unless he intends to fly only below 1100 (or in some cases
700) feet or other class G airspace. :-)

Tony

Yeah, okay;^)


I don't think that "they" could have used a worse term than "controlled
airspace". Almost every one assumes that it means that you have to talk
to a controller to fly in it - which it does not. It's great BFR oral
fodder, though. :-)

Tony
P.S. Frank, I understand that you knew that.

"Frank Whiteley" wrote in message
...
On Aug 31, 7:29 am, TonyV wrote:
Frank Whiteley wrote:
You won't be flying in controlled airspace.

He will be - unless he intends to fly only below 1100 (or in some cases
700) feet or other class G airspace. :-)

Tony

Yeah, okay;^)

Sure, it's controlled.. but for the VFR pilot he does not have to talk to
anyone as long as he stays out of Class A, B, C, D
which is real easy to do. Except for our Class B that bumps the north end of
the airport, about 5K AGL. South of the airport we are fine.

On Aug 31, 5:50*pm, TonyV wrote:
Frank Whiteley wrote:
On Aug 31, 7:29 am, TonyV wrote:
Frank Whiteley wrote:
You won't be flying in controlled airspace. *
He will be - unless he intends to fly only below 1100 (or in some cases
700) feet or other class G airspace. :-)

Tony

Yeah, okay;^)

I don't think that "they" could have used a worse term than "controlled
airspace". Almost every one assumes that it means that you have to talk
to a controller to fly in it - which it does not. It's great BFR oral
fodder, though. :-)

Tony
P.S. Frank, I understand that you knew that.

Yes, as covered on my most recent flight review;^)