Grow soaring thru entertainment

I think you're quite wrong on this, Michel. The cost of a glider is mainly
man hours and development; materials count for something like a third. And
it's fairly easy to sell a glider 1/3 cheaper than competing models if you
take the design and the structure from a competitor and build it with a
different airfoil... although I must admit that I'll prefer the Pégase over
the LS4 anytime.
DG and others already switched the man hours to the cheaper countries like
Slovenia, but it's still hard to make a profit in this small market even
though price tags are high. And the reality is: if there is no profit to be
made, nobody will manufacture any gliders.
And no, Michel, instruction is not for free in France. Most medium and large
clubs in France have one or more instructors which are payed (and numerous
instructors who are not payed) - and even though the student doesn't pay a
fee by the hour, where do you think do the salaries come from ?!

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 "TW"


"Michel Talon" a écrit dans le message de
...
Bill Daniels wrote:

Looking hard at the yearly costs of participation, air tow looms large.
The
50-75 flights required to attain a glider certificate will likely cost
something like $3000. Glider rental cost won't come down until the
prices
do and I wouldn't ask the instructors to reduce their fees since we need
them badly. If 50 of the 75 flights were by winch instead of airtow,
the
$3000 drops to $300. That's a pretty significant drop in up front cost
for
a student pilot.


From what i can see here, winch launches don't make a big difference in
the
total cost. Maybe you can hope a 20% gain in the total cost, which is good
but not sufficient. Fortunately in our country instructors instruct
for free ... Airports are more or less subsidized, hence don't cost much.
The real burden is the cost of new gliders if you want to maintain your
fleet
current. You all assume that it is impossible to cut on glider prices. In
my opinion it is false. Let me just mention the Pegase which has been
built
in France approximately at the same time as the German LS4 and with
basically
the same performances. The Pegase was 1/3 cheaper, and you can be sure
that
the factory was extremely far from efficient. Now where Lennie is
perfectly
right, the snobism and elitism occurring in the soaring community was such
that the Pegase has always been badmouthed compared to the LS4, while
they are both excellent gliders. The clubs which have bought a large
quantity of Pegase have been able to offer modern gliders to their members
(Buno-Bonnevaux is an example) at reasonable price, and the result has
been excellent soaring performance for these clubs. Now wonder the price
at
which a glider could be built in India, for example!


--

Michel TALON

There are still hundreds of gliders sold at reasonable prices. You can also
buy a car for the price of a house if you want, but you can go for a Golf
(or a Peugeot 307 :-) which does a fairly good job.

Why do the Germans and all the Nordics come to the South?? Wheather
conditions. It's that simple - I've been living and flying in Germany, and
I'm VERY happy to live and fly in the Alpine region.

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 "TW"


"Michel Talon" a écrit dans le message de
...
Asbjorn Hojmark wrote:

I'd say anyone can afford the above prices.


I agree, these prices are very correct. Now my point is that, even in the
cheapest clubs in France, even when absolutely everyone works for free,
prices are closer to the double of what you mention. So i would like to
understand ... I would like also to understand why a lot of people from
Nordic
countries, Germany and England come flying in France or in Spain when they
can
fly for half the price staying at home (and as far as i know prices in
Spain
and Italy are *not* cheaper than in France). When a convincing explanation
is
given for these discrepancies, then perhaps i can agree that the prices
of
gliders are not killing the sport. At present i still consider that a
glider
which is sold the price of a house is purely and simply a scandal, and a
complete waste of money except for the very rich ones.



-A

--

Michel TALON

tango4 wrote:

( PS: It might also have something to do with beautiful mountains, wide open
spaces, cheap petrol, good food, passable wine, reasonably priced
accomodation, lots more sunshine and really nice people )


Please, i didn't want to be provocative, i sincerely try to find an
explanation why prices seem to be half in some German clubs that in
France. Since i am convinced of the perfect honesty of the people
managing all these clubs, and they do it for free, the only explanation
i have found, and that you seem to confirm, is that the soaring
conditions are better, hence the average flight is longer, so that you
need more gliders per member of the club. In my experience, you can
count on only one person using a glider in a good day, and average
flights during = 5 hours, whence you are entitled to flying LS4,
Pegase or similar. Obviously if you count 2 people for glider for day,
you can divide price by 2, but this is completely fallacious.

As you can see from many other answers a lot of people think that
"evrything goes well in the best of worlds", that soaring is a sport
for the happy few who want to dedicate a lot of time and money to
the activity, etc. etc. Be sure that with such arguments you will
observe less and less midairs in the future...



--

Michel TALON

Lennie the Lurker wrote:

Higher performance and lower cost do not go together, one forbids the
other unless you want to sacrifice something like structural integrity
to reach it. In which case, you shouldn't be building airplanes,
maybe lawn chairs.

I don't agree with that. It doesn't cost one further cent to build a
wing with good aerodynamical qualities, as with poor qualities.
Here clubs have bought large quantities of ASK23 which are
flying bricks compared to LS4s and at similar prices. But i agree
with you if you are speaking of top performance gliders, since then you
need to be absolutely perfect everywhere, and this costs much. Hence
i was advocating a very good, but not top class glider. Other people
have mentioned the possibility to build a large quantity of cheap LS4
for example, this fits perfectly.



--

Michel TALON

Bert Willing wrote:
And no, Michel, instruction is not for free in France. Most medium and large
clubs in France have one or more instructors which are payed (and numerous
instructors who are not payed) - and even though the student doesn't pay a
fee by the hour, where do you think do the salaries come from ?!


This is perhaps the case of the clubs you are used to, but not the clubs
i am used to. Of those only Buno-Bonnevaux has payed personel, but who
does many other things besides instruction, such as taking care of
gliders in winter, reparations on broken gliders, etc. Most of the
instruction is delivered by people who do it for free. At the nearby
club of Moret, which is also a quite large club, absolutely nobody is
paid, and in my experience the prices are basically similar as those in
Buno, if you fly a reasonable number of hours per year. I also flied at
Montpellier when there was no paid personel, and in the Pyrenees, the
same. I suppose that the situation is different in the Alps, where there
are huge clubs, but i don't know them.


--

Michel TALON

Yes the situation is very different in the Alps - there are a lot of clubs,
few habitants so these clubs (especially in the South) rely on foreigners
coming for visits - and that's only possible with payed staff.

Even if you take French prices, I still think that soaring is not more
expensive than a season of skiing or whatever. Only, people rather tend to
want all of it...
What also drives prices high is a bit the attitude of club members which I
sometime observe. People look at a Pégase and say "not very exciting, I'd
prefer a LS8"... whereas they come nowhere towards the performance limit of
a Pégase. I certainly don't advocate Fauconnets or Wassmer gliders, but you
can buy a second hand Pégase for about 1/5th of the cash you have to put
down for a LS8, and you still have a L/D of 40+.

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 "TW"


"Michel Talon" a écrit dans le message de
...
Bert Willing wrote:
And no, Michel, instruction is not for free in France. Most medium and
large
clubs in France have one or more instructors which are payed (and
numerous
instructors who are not payed) - and even though the student doesn't pay
a
fee by the hour, where do you think do the salaries come from ?!


This is perhaps the case of the clubs you are used to, but not the clubs
i am used to. Of those only Buno-Bonnevaux has payed personel, but who
does many other things besides instruction, such as taking care of
gliders in winter, reparations on broken gliders, etc. Most of the
instruction is delivered by people who do it for free. At the nearby
club of Moret, which is also a quite large club, absolutely nobody is
paid, and in my experience the prices are basically similar as those in
Buno, if you fly a reasonable number of hours per year. I also flied at
Montpellier when there was no paid personel, and in the Pyrenees, the
same. I suppose that the situation is different in the Alps, where there
are huge clubs, but i don't know them.


--

Michel TALON

Bert Willing wrote:
Yes the situation is very different in the Alps - there are a lot of clubs,
few habitants so these clubs (especially in the South) rely on foreigners
coming for visits - and that's only possible with payed staff.


Yes, i understand.

Even if you take French prices, I still think that soaring is not more
expensive than a season of skiing or whatever. Only, people rather tend to
want all of it...

You know, there are less and less people who can afford skiing. I am
a researcher in Paris University, and with this sort of salary it is out
of question to go skiing a lot, or buy an expensive glider or similar
things. The little money i can put aside, has been diverted into buying
a house, and it would be completely irresponsible doing otherwise.


What also drives prices high is a bit the attitude of club members which I
sometime observe. People look at a Pégase and say "not very exciting, I'd
prefer a LS8"... whereas they come nowhere towards the performance limit of
a Pégase. I certainly don't advocate Fauconnets or Wassmer gliders, but you
can buy a second hand Pégase for about 1/5th of the cash you have to put
down for a LS8, and you still have a L/D of 40+.


Your comments are completely coherent with what i have heard many times.
And it is more justified to prefer flying an LS8 than a Pegase, compared
to an LS4. This is exactly the form of badmouthing and snobbiness Lennie
was speaking about and which is so prevalent in the people practising
this sport. With any glider of the class of LS4 or Pegase, almost
anybody with reasonable training can do very nice flies, XC, etc.
I think it is the aim when thinking about a widely available and cheap
glider (or a good second hand one).




--

Michel TALON

Michel Talon wrote:
...
Here clubs have bought large quantities of ASK23 which are
flying bricks compared to LS4s and at similar prices.
...

This is not the exact reality. The total number of ASK23
registered in France is 6, 3 of them (F-CGCV, F-CGCZ and
F-CHAS) are in my club (Centre Aéronautique de Beynes),
the 3 others are at Moret/Episy. Of coures their performance
is not competitive compared to LS4s or any other standard
ship of the same generation with retracting gear. But calling
it a flying brick is execessive. The performance is similar
to the ASK21 (I agree the ASK21 is a little better), the problem
is mainly in their low wing loading, which is also one of
the purpose of their design, in order to make them easy to
handle and very similar to the ASK21. I agree that the price
is excessive, as almost everybody probably does, this is
what made Schleicher stop the production. However this is a
good illustration of the fact that the price is not directly
related to performance. These gliders are very well built,
with expensive materials (honeycomb sandwich), in order to
withstand to the mishandling of beginners, and this has a cost
that can't be reduced.

tango4 wrote:
...
We put up with having to talk in French when everyone else in the world of
aviation talks English
...

Everyone in the world of aviation talks his native language and in some
cases English is also used as an international language. France is not
an exception, I remember when I spent a few days flying in Spain I had
to learn how to make my downwind radio call in Spanish. As you have the
chance that your native language was choosen as the international one,
you should not complain about it.

Robert Ehrlich wrote:
Michel Talon wrote:
...
Here clubs have bought large quantities of ASK23 which are
flying bricks compared to LS4s and at similar prices.
...

This is not the exact reality. The total number of ASK23
registered in France is 6, 3 of them (F-CGCV, F-CGCZ and
F-CHAS) are in my club (Centre Aéronautique de Beynes),

Well i have just taken a look at Beynes site. It appears that all
beginner gliders are ASK23, this is quite a lot. I also see you have
21 gliders and the flat tarif is 1700 euros per year, that is more than
Buno. But the range of your gliders is very nice, indeed!

the 3 others are at Moret/Episy.

Moret was proud of having very affordable conditions. With their 3
ASK23, a serious hole had been digged in the budget. Since the chief
was an horrible snob (*), he also sold the Pegases and bought as many
LS4, a second occasion to throw money by the windows.


Of coures their performance
is not competitive compared to LS4s or any other standard

This is an understatement.

However this is a
good illustration of the fact that the price is not directly
related to performance.

Perfectly right, hence my assertion that for the same price
it is best to have good performance.


These gliders are very well built,
with expensive materials (honeycomb sandwich), in order to
withstand to the mishandling of beginners, and this has a cost
that can't be reduced.

Come on, "prices cannot be reduced" is a petition of principle. I am
sure that your salary, and mine, has been reduced very effectively
in the last ten years, in absolute value. And you can build a glider as
a bulldozer, it will crash exactly the same if you spin when landing.



--

Michel TALON