World Gliding Championships British Team

In article , stant2
@mindspring.com says...

Me too, if we could hear what they really think. But do you really
think they are going to bite the hand that sent them to the Worlds,
and may do it again? "Yep, we done ****ty against them furriners cause
the SSA and SRA suck! Bye, gotta go fly me a two hour TAT, I just love
them free 15 minutes!". Sounds like a line in a PEZ cartoon!

If you look at the names that come up with these rules, you'd know
they ARE or WERE team pilots. So, why are these pilots coming up with
rules that will hamper them or similar pilots in World contests? I
don't think you've made the point that our rules really work against
us in the World competitions, and until you do that, it's a lousy
reason to change our rules.

--
!Replace DECIMAL.POINT in my e-mail address with just a . to reply
directly

Eric Greenwell
Richland, WA (USA)

Eric Greenwell wrote in message ...

If you look at the names that come up with these rules, you'd know
they ARE or WERE team pilots. So, why are these pilots coming up with
rules that will hamper them or similar pilots in World contests? I
don't think you've made the point that our rules really work against
us in the World competitions, and until you do that, it's a lousy
reason to change our rules.

Uh, excuse me, but team flying is not allowed in US competitions. So
by definition, none of these pilots are team pilots. I've tried team
flying. It's a lot of fun, but also a lot of work, and the psychology
is really interesting. But it can make two gliders go a lot faster
than if they were flying individually - I have the .igc traces to
prove it. It is absolutely not something you do on the spur of the
moment and expect to do well at. I don't know why these rules have
been implemented, maybe they favor the type of flying the implementers
prefer. I would love to hear why some of these rules were
implemented. Bottom line: we suck in international contests. No brag,
just fact. Now we fly the same gliders, with the same instruments,
and our weather is no better or worse than the rest of the world's.
You do the math.

It's a really good reason to change our rules. They are what set us
apart from the rest of the global soaring community. And until we
grow up and play in the big leagues, we will continue to be a minor
player in international soaring.

Doesn't it **** you off to be beaten by Japan?

Kirk
66

I most emphatically disagree that the World's rules should be used
to select the individual who is our National Champion. Precisely because
the World's are dominated by team flying. The U.S. champion should
reflect the attributes that we want in a U.S. champion. Singular.

Now if the powers who be want to limit the World's to one entry per
class per country and forbid ground based assistance during the flight
then we can start debating the rules. Might make a considerable
difference in how expensive the World's participation is, too.

Dennis Brown



In article ,
(Kirk Stant) wrote:
Eric Greenwell wrote in message
...

If you look at the names that come up with these rules, you'd know
they ARE or WERE team pilots. So, why are these pilots coming up with
rules that will hamper them or similar pilots in World contests? I
don't think you've made the point that our rules really work against
us in the World competitions, and until you do that, it's a lousy
reason to change our rules.

Uh, excuse me, but team flying is not allowed in US competitions. So
by definition, none of these pilots are team pilots. I've tried team
flying. It's a lot of fun, but also a lot of work, and the psychology
is really interesting. But it can make two gliders go a lot faster
than if they were flying individually - I have the .igc traces to
prove it. It is absolutely not something you do on the spur of the
moment and expect to do well at. I don't know why these rules have
been implemented, maybe they favor the type of flying the implementers
prefer. I would love to hear why some of these rules were
implemented. Bottom line: we suck in international contests. No brag,
just fact. Now we fly the same gliders, with the same instruments,
and our weather is no better or worse than the rest of the world's.
You do the math.

It's a really good reason to change our rules. They are what set us
apart from the rest of the global soaring community. And until we
grow up and play in the big leagues, we will continue to be a minor
player in international soaring.

Doesn't it **** you off to be beaten by Japan?

Kirk
66

In article , stant2
@mindspring.com says...
Eric Greenwell wrote in message ...

If you look at the names that come up with these rules, you'd know
they ARE or WERE team pilots. So, why are these pilots coming up with
rules that will hamper them or similar pilots in World contests? I
don't think you've made the point that our rules really work against
us in the World competitions, and until you do that, it's a lousy
reason to change our rules.

Uh, excuse me, but team flying is not allowed in US competitions. So
by definition, none of these pilots are team pilots.

I meant they were on our Team to the international championships, not
that they routinely did "team flying".

I've tried team
flying. It's a lot of fun, but also a lot of work, and the psychology
is really interesting. But it can make two gliders go a lot faster
than if they were flying individually - I have the .igc traces to
prove it. It is absolutely not something you do on the spur of the
moment and expect to do well at.

I agree, but this is the only rule I'm aware of that has hampered our
Team pilots.

I don't know why these rules have
been implemented, maybe they favor the type of flying the implementers
prefer.

This rule has been around for at least the 28 years I've been in the
sport. I think it represents our national character, if there is such
a thing, and it's certainly in line with how most of the racing pilots
have felt over the years I've been in the sport. As a group, we're
pretty individualistic. There's been no clamor to change it while I've
been around, though the idea does resurface periodically, but goes
nowhere, and soon even the international races will not allow it. I
think it's a dead issue.

I would love to hear why some of these rules were
implemented. Bottom line: we suck in international contests. No brag,
just fact. Now we fly the same gliders, with the same instruments,
and our weather is no better or worse than the rest of the world's.
You do the math.

Other the team flying rule, which we've known to be a problem for
decades, what current rules makes us unprepared for international
competition? Will changing these rules better promote soaring in this
country? And why do US pilots with considerable experience in
international competitions make these rules if it will hamper them or
others that get on the US Team?


It's a really good reason to change our rules. They are what set us
apart from the rest of the global soaring community. And until we
grow up and play in the big leagues, we will continue to be a minor
player in international soaring.

Doesn't it **** you off to be beaten by Japan?

No. And frankly, I don't take if personally if our Team is beaten by
some other Team, either.
--
!Replace DECIMAL.POINT in my e-mail address with just a . to reply
directly

Eric Greenwell
Richland, WA (USA)

(Kirk Stant) wrote in message . com...
Eric Greenwell wrote in message ...

If you look at the names that come up with these rules, you'd know
they ARE or WERE team pilots. So, why are these pilots coming up with
rules that will hamper them or similar pilots in World contests? I
don't think you've made the point that our rules really work against
us in the World competitions, and until you do that, it's a lousy
reason to change our rules.

Uh, excuse me, but team flying is not allowed in US competitions. So
by definition, none of these pilots are team pilots. I've tried team
flying. It's a lot of fun, but also a lot of work, and the psychology
is really interesting. But it can make two gliders go a lot faster
than if they were flying individually - I have the .igc traces to
prove it. It is absolutely not something you do on the spur of the
moment and expect to do well at. I don't know why these rules have
been implemented, maybe they favor the type of flying the implementers
prefer. I would love to hear why some of these rules were
implemented. Bottom line: we suck in international contests. No brag,
just fact. Now we fly the same gliders, with the same instruments,
and our weather is no better or worse than the rest of the world's.
You do the math.

It's a really good reason to change our rules. They are what set us
apart from the rest of the global soaring community. And until we
grow up and play in the big leagues, we will continue to be a minor
player in international soaring.

Doesn't it **** you off to be beaten by Japan?

Kirk
66

A bit of a challange for Kirk:
Please provide info to member of the rules comm. as to what rule says
that team flying is not allowed in US competition. I have not been
able to find such a rule.
Team flying happens now- you simply are not aware of it.
Would be interested in your explanation of why the new 18M World
Champion beat the only team in the 18M- the former WC and his brother.
Possibly you can explain how John Coutts managed to win the 15M with
no team mate.
As to getting beaten by Mac. He is an excellent pilot who has
dedicated his life becoming the best pilot he can be. I consider him a
friend and find it insulting to him that you would refer to him in
such a manner.
UH WGC Team 01 and 02

"Hank Nixon" wrote...
Please provide info to member of the rules comm. as to what rule says
that team flying is not allowed in US competition. I have not been
able to find such a rule.

U.S. National FAI-Class Competition Rules, Contest Year 2003:

10.7.2.7 Relaying of information between aircraft for any reason other than
safety is prohibited. This specifically forbids team flying.

Team flying happens now- you simply are not aware of it.

Somehow, I'm not surprised...

Marc

If Pilots are team flying Results would also be similar since they have to be
fairly close to be of any use to each other.
In the standard class britsh pilots were 1st and 19th (out of 44)
15m class 4th and 37th (out of 41)
18m class 2nd and 3rd (out of 23)
open class 4th (out of 20)
From this I would deduce that team flying was only of use in the 18m class.

What seems to be having an influence in the UK is the number of younger pilots
coming along and 'pushing' the established stars.

Amazing how a congratulatory message can be turned
into a chat on yank issues. Supprised no-one has mentioned
schweizer spam cans.

At 04:06 14 August 2003, Oscarcvox wrote:
If Pilots are team flying Results would also be similar
since they have to be
fairly close to be of any use to each other.
In the standard class britsh pilots were 1st and 19th
(out of 44)
15m class 4th and 37th (out of 41)
18m class 2nd and 3rd (out of 23)
open class 4th (out of 20)
From this I would deduce that team flying was only
of use in the 18m class.

What seems to be having an influence in the UK is the
number of younger pilots
coming along and 'pushing' the established stars.

(OscarCVox) wrote in message ...
If Pilots are team flying Results would also be similar since they have to be
fairly close to be of any use to each other.

Wrong conclusion based on wrong assumption. Depends on how you define
and/or execute team flying.
One form of team flying (the form you and most are probably thinking
of) is the close team where the two gliders are rarely or never more
than a few hundred meters apart. The extreme variant: If for some
reason the gap gets too big, the one ahead waits (even deploys
spoilers!) for the other to catch up. If one has to outland, the other
will join him. Successful examples: French team at the WGC in Wiener
Neustadt, the Frei brothers who won the pre-Worlds in Bayreuth. They
tied for first place twice in the Swiss Nationals.
Less extreme: if the team gets separated, each member flies on and
gives all relevant information to the other. It becomes an info-team.
The one behind has a very good chance of catching up again. That's how
most teams work. Successful example: the Crabb brothers (I think
that's how they do it).
Some teams don't even bother to try to stay together because they'll
get seperated anyway. So they start off as a pure info-team from the
beginning.


In the standard class britsh pilots were 1st and 19th (out of 44)
15m class 4th and 37th (out of 41)
18m class 2nd and 3rd (out of 23)
open class 4th (out of 20)
From this I would deduce that team flying was only of use in the 18m class.

See above. The overall ranking says nothing about successful or not
team flying. On WGC level you can lose more than 10 overall places
with one bad day. I know, believe me.
How do you know 1st in standard and 4th in 15m weren't a result of
good info-team flying? As soon as one pilot has no chance of winning
anymore, why not send him ahead to try and make the other pilot even
faster? (Don't know for sure if this is done)

Now about 4th place in open class. Ever thought of inter-class or
inter-national team flying? Example: Makoto Ichikawa (JPN) and Thomas
Suchanek (CZ) flew as a team in Poland.
So just forget the one-pilot-per-nation-per-class rubbish to prevent
team flying. Even IGC must realise that, no?


Regards
Marcel

"Marc Ramsey" wrote in message ...
"Hank Nixon" wrote...
Please provide info to member of the rules comm. as to what rule says
that team flying is not allowed in US competition. I have not been
able to find such a rule.

U.S. National FAI-Class Competition Rules, Contest Year 2003:

10.7.2.7 Relaying of information between aircraft for any reason other than
safety is prohibited. This specifically forbids team flying.



Just as a matter of interest: How exactly do you make sure it isn't done anyway?

Marcel