Backup Flight Data Recorder?

Hello All,

I'm new to racing, and I have a new D-2b on order from Germany. I'm
considering installing a backup Flight Data Recorder (FDR) to my
Cambridge 302, and I'm curious to see how many other competition pilots
choose to have a backup FDR as well. What kind of backup FDRs do you
use?

Thanks in advance for any advice you have!

Chris Fleming, 'F2'
El Paso, Texas

Fox Two wrote:
Hello All,

I'm new to racing, and I have a new D-2b on order from Germany. I'm
considering installing a backup Flight Data Recorder (FDR) to my
Cambridge 302, and I'm curious to see how many other competition pilots
choose to have a backup FDR as well. What kind of backup FDRs do you
use?

Thanks in advance for any advice you have!

Chris Fleming, 'F2'
El Paso, Texas

Yes I fly with a backup FDR. I don't think waht you choose to fly with
is a important as how you have it set up. Current;y I am using a CAI
302 as my primary, and a CAI 302A as my secondary (previously I was
using a colibri as my secondary), but I always have my secondary on an
isolated electrical system.

Orion Kingman
DV8

I have a backup too.

As primary I use a Zander GP941 and as secondary I use a CAI GPSNAV 10.

It is important that the secondary FR is a different make than the
primary. The most likely reasons, after installation and power supply,
for a FR not working properly are design and production.

Use two independent power supplies for the two FRs. By independent I
mean that there is no common element in the power supplies, not even a
common switch, fuse or .... .

The two antennae should be separated by at least 20 cm.

You ought to be able to use both FR as means of navigation. So you need
also two different navigation displays; again not the same make and not
the same software.





Fox Two schrieb:
Hello All,

I'm new to racing, and I have a new D-2b on order from Germany. I'm
considering installing a backup Flight Data Recorder (FDR) to my
Cambridge 302, and I'm curious to see how many other competition pilots
choose to have a backup FDR as well. What kind of backup FDRs do you
use?

Thanks in advance for any advice you have!

Chris Fleming, 'F2'
El Paso, Texas

Fox Two wrote:
Hello All,

I'm new to racing, and I have a new D-2b on order from Germany. I'm
considering installing a backup Flight Data Recorder (FDR) to my
Cambridge 302, and I'm curious to see how many other competition pilots
choose to have a backup FDR as well. What kind of backup FDRs do you
use?

Thanks in advance for any advice you have!

Chris Fleming, 'F2'
El Paso, Texas

Chris,

I opted to go a slightly different route and purchased a Garmin GPS
Map 76. For well under $200 street price, you get a fully functional
navigation system that is completely self-contained, including the
ability to run on 2 AA batteries for more than 8 hours (I use two
2500mAh rechargables which I swap out after every flight; have recorded
long ridge missions of over 8 hours without any problems). It has
it's own display and good recording and downloading capabilities.
Plus, it doesn't take up any precious panel space or require additional
displays or wiring. Mine is mounted on a home-built bracket, but RAM
and others provide some very slick mounting options. In the US, it
is acceptable as contest documentation. The only problem would be for
a badge flight, where the FAI has not approved it for documentation.

Since you are "new to racing", you might want to consider this simple
approach until you get all of the other stuff (like flying) worked out.

Erik Mann
LS8-18 (P3)

Papa3 wrote:
Fox Two wrote:
Hello All,

I'm new to racing, and I have a new D-2b on order from Germany. I'm
considering installing a backup Flight Data Recorder (FDR) to my
Cambridge 302, and I'm curious to see how many other competition pilots
choose to have a backup FDR as well. What kind of backup FDRs do you
use?

Thanks in advance for any advice you have!

Chris Fleming, 'F2'
El Paso, Texas

Chris,

I opted to go a slightly different route and purchased a Garmin GPS
Map 76. For well under $200 street price, you get a fully functional
navigation system that is completely self-contained, including the
ability to run on 2 AA batteries for more than 8 hours (I use two
2500mAh rechargables which I swap out after every flight; have recorded
long ridge missions of over 8 hours without any problems). It has
it's own display and good recording and downloading capabilities.
Plus, it doesn't take up any precious panel space or require additional
displays or wiring. Mine is mounted on a home-built bracket, but RAM
and others provide some very slick mounting options. In the US, it
is acceptable as contest documentation. The only problem would be for
a badge flight, where the FAI has not approved it for documentation.

Since you are "new to racing", you might want to consider this simple
approach until you get all of the other stuff (like flying) worked out.

Erik Mann
LS8-18 (P3)

Two words of caution with Garmin units: 1.) they are not IGC approved,
you cannot use them for badges or records. 2.) Some of the newer
Garmin units (the 396 in particular) have XM sattelite weather
capability. This is illegal to use in US contest and can result in a
DQ for that contest and a five year ban from competitive soaring in the
US.

DV8

Papa3 wrote:
I opted to go a slightly different route and purchased a Garmin GPS
Map 76. For well under $200 street price, you get a fully functional
navigation system that is completely self-contained, including the
ability to run on 2 AA batteries for more than 8 hours (I use two
2500mAh rechargables which I swap out after every flight; have recorded
long ridge missions of over 8 hours without any problems). It has
it's own display and good recording and downloading capabilities.
Plus, it doesn't take up any precious panel space or require additional
displays or wiring. Mine is mounted on a home-built bracket, but RAM
and others provide some very slick mounting options. In the US, it
is acceptable as contest documentation. The only problem would be for
a badge flight, where the FAI has not approved it for documentation.

My flight recorder has failed several times (for trivial but fatal
reasons unrelated to installation or power supply) so I'm absolutely
committed to having a backup. Having borrowed Erik's Garmin GPS MAP 76
several times for contest backup, and having evaluated the
alternatives, I bought my own recently ($160 delivered on eBay). It's
completely self contained, produces an IGC file (using SeeYou)--albeit
not a secure one--that is usually indistinguishable from the one in my
primary flight recorder, allows me to upload the contest database, and
has a nice display, with a built in U.S. roads and towns database.

Yeah, it's not IGC approved so you'll need something else as your
primary recorder. But as a backup, it's exactly what I need. It will
also provide a NMEA input to varios and PDAs for a backup moving
map/flight computer, so long as GPS altitude is OK.

The last point is the only real concern I have: if my primary recorder
fails, I'll be relying on GPS altitude for starts, special-use airspace
clearances, etc. So long as I know about it, I just have to pay
attention to the GPS readout. But GPS and pressure altitude vary
anywhere from a few feet to many hundreds of feet.

Garmin makes a similar model with a pressure altitude sensor but it's
unclear whether that would be secure enough to meet the requirements at
a [U.S.] contest...and it costs more.

My PDA-and-primary-flight-recorder-based moving map froze at the Uvalde
Std. Nats. a few weeks ago just as I was maneuvering to turn and tap
the last cylinder as I flew by it and head for the finish. I punched up
the TP on the Garmin and used it to navigate while I fumbled with the
PDA, eventually doing a soft reset. I was very happy I had the Garmin!

Chip Bearden
ASW 24 "JB"

Papa3 wrote:
I opted to go a slightly different route and purchased a Garmin GPS
Map 76. For well under $200 street price, you get a fully functional
navigation system that is completely self-contained, including the
ability to run on 2 AA batteries for more than 8 hours (I use two
2500mAh rechargables which I swap out after every flight; have recorded
long ridge missions of over 8 hours without any problems). It has
it's own display and good recording and downloading capabilities.
Plus, it doesn't take up any precious panel space or require additional
displays or wiring. Mine is mounted on a home-built bracket, but RAM
and others provide some very slick mounting options. In the US, it
is acceptable as contest documentation. The only problem would be for
a badge flight, where the FAI has not approved it for documentation.

My flight recorder has failed several times (for trivial but fatal
reasons unrelated to installation or power supply) so I'm absolutely
committed to having a backup. Having borrowed Erik's Garmin GPS MAP 76
several times for contest backup, and having evaluated the
alternatives, I bought my own recently ($160 delivered on eBay). It's
completely self contained, produces an IGC file (using SeeYou)--albeit
not a secure one--that is usually indistinguishable from the one in my
primary flight recorder, allows me to upload the contest database, and
has a nice display, with a built in U.S. roads and towns database.

Yeah, it's not IGC approved so you'll need something else as your
primary recorder. But as a backup, it's exactly what I need. It will
also provide a NMEA input to varios and PDAs for a backup moving
map/flight computer, so long as GPS altitude is OK.

The last point is the only real concern I have: if my primary recorder
fails, I'll be relying on GPS altitude for starts, special-use airspace
clearances, etc. So long as I know about it, I just have to pay
attention to the GPS readout. But GPS and pressure altitude vary
anywhere from a few feet to many hundreds of feet.

Garmin makes a similar model with a pressure altitude sensor but it's
unclear whether that would be secure enough to meet the requirements at
a [U.S.] contest...and it costs more.

My PDA-and-primary-flight-recorder-based moving map froze at the Uvalde
Std. Nats. a few weeks ago just as I was maneuvering to turn and tap
the last cylinder as I flew by it and head for the finish. I punched up
the TP on the Garmin and used it to navigate while I fumbled with the
PDA, eventually doing a soft reset. I was very happy I had the Garmin!

Chip Bearden
ASW 24 "JB"

wrote:

Having borrowed Erik's Garmin GPS MAP 76
several times for contest backup, and having evaluated the
alternatives, I bought my own recently ($160 delivered on eBay). It's
completely self contained, produces an IGC file (using SeeYou)--albeit
not a secure one--that is usually indistinguishable from the one in my
primary flight recorder, allows me to upload the contest database, and
has a nice display, with a built in U.S. roads and towns database.

The last point is the only real concern I have: if my primary recorder
fails, I'll be relying on GPS altitude for starts, special-use airspace
clearances, etc. So long as I know about it, I just have to pay
attention to the GPS readout. But GPS and pressure altitude vary
anywhere from a few feet to many hundreds of feet.

The GPSMAP 76S has the barometric sensor, at least OLC thinks so,
according to the online flight display.

Or is it the straight 76 that you bought?



Jack

58y wrote:
The GPSMAP 76S has the barometric sensor, at least OLC thinks so,
according to the online flight display.

Or is it the straight 76 that you bought?

Jack

I've noticed that some flight evaluation programs will take the GPS
Altitude and display it as Pressure Altitude if none exists in the
B-Record positions normally reserved for Barometric Altitude. That
may be what you are seeing...

P3

Orion Kingman wrote:
Papa3 wrote:
Fox Two wrote:
Hello All,

I'm new to racing, and I have a new D-2b on order from Germany. I'm
considering installing a backup Flight Data Recorder (FDR) to my
Cambridge 302, and I'm curious to see how many other competition pilots
choose to have a backup FDR as well. What kind of backup FDRs do you
use?

Thanks in advance for any advice you have!

Chris Fleming, 'F2'
El Paso, Texas

Chris,

snip. The only problem would be for
a badge flight, where the FAI has not approved it for documentation.

Since you are "new to racing", you might want to consider this simple
approach until you get all of the other stuff (like flying) worked out.

Erik Mann
LS8-18 (P3)

Two words of caution with Garmin units: 1.) they are not IGC approved,
you cannot use them for badges or records. 2.) Some of the newer
Garmin units (the 396 in particular) have XM sattelite weather
capability. This is illegal to use in US contest and can result in a
DQ for that contest and a five year ban from competitive soaring in the
US.

DV8

Chris,

As I mentioned in my original post and as Orion points out, the Garmin
units are not approved as standalone FRs by the IGC. So, they're not
acceptable for badges and records. From your first sentence, I
gathered that you are primarily interested in racing. If so, then I
think the Garmin is a very smart choice for several reasons:

- Reliability. These things are built in large volumes for use in a
lot of demanding environments. My experience is that they are
extremely unlikely to fail, especially since they don't have a lot of
the bells and whistles that some of our FRs have. On the other hand,
I can count over a dozen failures of purpose-built gliding FRs at
contests I've attended in the last 3 years.

- Availability. If worst comes to worst and your Garmin quits on you
(or you run over it with your tow vehicle - don't ask me how I know),
there's almost no place in the US where you can't find a K-Mart or a
Walmart nearby that has a similar unit for sale. You can have your
replacement the same day.

- Self-contained. As long as you are willing to live with an 8 hour
battery life and are careful about rotating batteries before each
flight, the Garmin unit is completely self contained. No extra
displays required. You can still use it as output to a PDA, but it
will get you around the course and home if all else craps out.

- Usability. Because these units are designed for the general public,
their interface is quite simple to learn. In addition, they are well
suited to using for other more mundane pursuits (like finding your
buddy when he lands out), so I tend to use it more frequently than I
thought I would. As a result, I find that I stay current on this unit
even though it's primarily a backup in flight.

- Cost. This one is in the eye of the beholder. When I was young
and single, I wouldn't think twice at having two complete FR and
Navigation systems costing over $1,000 each. Now, with two kids and a
family budget that treasures every penny it can find, saving $800 or
more dollars is a big deal.

Anyway, there are a lot of folks using Garmins as FRs, so you should be
able to find plenty of ideas on how to use them. There are also
newsgroups dedicated to Garmin GPSMAP and ETrex units which have a
wealth of information.

Regards,

P3