skyrides are at it again?

Frank,

Based on your message, it sounds like www.800soaring.com at least
attempts to behave responsibly.

However, observations thus far suggest that www.1800skyride.com is
engaging in unethical practices:
- Reusing photos without permission (I also assume the video is also
not their own)
- Plagiarizing text from other websites (including the SSA and Nutmeg
Soaring)
- Failing to establish agreements with operators (if they just call,
verify FAST, and then hang up... that is not an agreement)
- Allowing online purchase of the "Glider Ride Gift Certificate"
without any information on the specific locations, possibly baiting
customers who will be unable to use the certificate without full and
fair disclosure of what they are buying

Based on the online purchase link the price is $199, so they are
marking this up 100%. It sounds like they are trying to take
advantage of the FAST program. If they want to sell rides, let them
resell commercial rides based on a written agreement between ride
operators and the marketing company (like 800soaring apparently
does). That way all parties are engaging in an open transaction,
knowing what they are in for, and how the profits will be shared.

The FAST program is designed to allow people with a serious interest
in soaring instruction to get a start. The 1800skyride website does
not accurately represent the FAST program or its intent, yet this is
what they are apparently reselling. Is there not a rule against
reselling FAST certificates at a profit? It seems that given the
intent of the FAST program, only FAST member operators or the SSA
should allowed to sell these. 1800skyride appears to be using dubious
business practices to capture excess value from the consumer by
charging a much higher price. Both the customer and the program are
being violated in my opinion.

Furthermore, given the prior company history, and the questionable
approach of their current start it sounds like business as usual, not
“new management.” (Perhaps the new holding company is just a cover
for the old owners.) The old approach apparently led to many unhappy
customers, and it is likely to produce the same results again.

Soaring needs promotion, but not internet third-party promoters who
are behaving irresponsibly and unethically. As Rex points out, it
wouldn't take much for the key stakeholders (pilots, clubs, and
commercial operators) to take the lead in improving promotion and
marketing with a little help and guidance. That approach would create
real value for the sport.

Mike Hendron

In the past skyride was hard to deal with and had questionable
practices but with the new ownership they have made a complete turn
around. Our sport is terribly under exposed and under promoted. I
make the same money on a ride if they come to me thru skyride or if
they come to me directly. I pay other people a commission for
bringing me business, and I don't mind if skyride makes some money on
the customers that they bring to our sport. The SSA does not do
enough to get soaring out to the public. We need more exposure in my
opinion, and I think skyride is helping do that now.

Boggs

On Aug 25, 7:29*am, mgh3485 wrote:
Frank,

Based on your message, it sounds likewww.800soaring.comat least
attempts to behave responsibly.

However, observations thus far suggest thatwww.1800skyride.comis
engaging in unethical practices:
- Reusing photos without permission (I also assume the video is also
not their own)
- Plagiarizing text from other websites (including the SSA and Nutmeg
Soaring)
- Failing to establish agreements with operators (if they just call,
verify FAST, and then hang up... that is not an agreement)
- Allowing online purchase of the "Glider Ride Gift Certificate"
without any information on the specific locations, possibly baiting
customers who will be unable to use the certificate without full and
fair disclosure of what they are buying

Based on the online purchase link the price is $199, so they are
marking this up 100%. *It sounds like they are trying to take
advantage of the FAST program. *If they want to sell rides, let them
resell commercial rides based on a written agreement between ride
operators and the marketing company (like 800soaring apparently
does). *That way all parties are engaging in an open transaction,
knowing what they are in for, and how the profits will be shared.

The FAST program is designed to allow people with a serious interest
in soaring instruction to get a start. *The 1800skyride website does
not accurately represent the FAST program or its intent, yet this is
what they are apparently reselling. *Is there not a rule against
reselling FAST certificates at a profit? *It seems that given the
intent of the FAST program, only FAST member operators or the SSA
should allowed to sell these. *1800skyride appears to be using dubious
business practices to capture excess value from the consumer by
charging a much higher price. *Both the customer and the program are
being violated in my opinion.

Furthermore, given the prior company history, and the questionable
approach of their current start it sounds like business as usual, not
“new management.” *(Perhaps the new holding company is just a cover
for the old owners.) *The old approach apparently led to many unhappy
customers, and it is likely to produce the same results again.

Soaring needs promotion, but not internet third-party promoters who
are behaving irresponsibly and unethically. *As Rex points out, it
wouldn't take much for the key stakeholders (pilots, clubs, and
commercial operators) to take the lead in improving promotion and
marketing with a little help and guidance. *That approach would create
real value for the sport.

Mike Hendron

This is on the SSA EXCOM agenda for this evening.

Have a look at this approach
http://www.discoverycenter.cc/testup...ses/il0075.htm

It reflects an acceptable price for the CC registration (it used to be
$100) and a very reasonable price for the service AND LUNCH (it was
formerly $90 IIRC). The first day, a few years ago, 20 people showed
up. They put a six student limit on registration following that one.
Drawing on all of their resources they managed to serve all of the 20
students, but had to cancel some of their other customers. It's a two
hour drive from Chicago, plus toll roads. Now extend that a bit to a
mini-course of three lessons spread over at least two days and there
you go.

This is a very effective outreach approach that soaring organizations
should consider developing locally. Another offering might be a
glider pilot's ground school at an an adult continuing education
program.

And then there's the commercial operator that sold 500 flights in one
day via Groupon in his local market. Priced to make a profit. We're
still awaiting the final assessment on the fulfillment.

Frank Whiteley

On Aug 24, 7:24*pm, Frank Whiteley wrote:
On Aug 24, 2:02*pm, T wrote:





On Aug 24, 7:47*am, Bill D wrote:

On Aug 24, 8:01*am, Frank Whiteley wrote:

On Aug 23, 2:50*pm, Drew Pearce wrote:

Currently many commercial glider operations do not want to
work with some ticket agencies reselling their tickets because
they cannibalize business from customers already searching for
them online. They have professional *sales people, slick yet
vague websites, the advertising budget to get top search engine
placement and can often sell for less than a commercial glider
operator because they make a good profit off of unredeemed
gift certificates.

If commercial glider operators do not want to work with them
now, then I would expect they will just quit the FAST program if
it means they would have to accept gift certificates sold by a
third party ticket agency. So then it is conceivable that
commercial operations would see a loss of business and
participating clubs would be over burdened with rides. If people
are buying a gift for a glider ride, is it then legal or ethical to
send the gift recipient to a non-profit club when the customer felt
they were dealing with a commercial business? Does the fact
that a ticket agency make a profit on the ride cause a problem
for the non-profit club status?

The way the SAA FAST program works now, the majority of
people being sent to a flight school would not have otherwise
found them and so are most likely helping increase their
business. However, if most of the people sent to them through
the FAST program are really just looking for a ride and typically
would have bought directly from the operator, then the FAST
program no longer makes since to operators. A commercial
operation typically takes a loss when honoring a FAST
certificate.

Caution should be used before trying to remove any SSA
business member since this may cause some legal problems for
the SSA. New rules could be created for the FAST program to
close any loopholes which could cause the program to collapse.
Maybe only allow participating flight schools who actually honor
the FAST certificates be allowed to resale the FAST certificates.
You may also want to limit the number a FAST certificates each
one can resale (since one could buy or lease a glider and
towplane to operate just 1 day a year) plus require that sales
methods for FAST certificates need to be directed primarily
towards customers planning to use them at their own location.
This needs more thought before setting the rules but this gives
an idea of how to close the loopholes without causing legal
problems. The US parachute association supposedly had a bad
experience trying to kick out a business member once for
similar reasons and were not successful in removing them I
heard.

A flight school who works with a third party ticket agency can
still offer the FAST program to those students that schedule with
them through the third party ticket agency and who really want
a lesson. The flight school can purchase the book packets
directly from the SSA for $50, give them to any students coming
in for an intro lesson and then get their $50 back when the SSA
receives the membership certificate. This is what the Hollister
Soaring Center does with every new student. The SSA gets a
new member and the student gets essentially free books plus a
membership. There is no need or advantage for the SSA to work
with any third party ticket agency that I can see.

I would like to add a bit of information to this thread.

1800skyrides is a brand and was acquired by Headband LLC in October
2010. *The former company was IGO Vincent LLC. *When consulted, I
advised them of the considerable ill will the brand carried in the US
soaring community. Part of their marketing plan is to use localized
domains and targeted search placement. *I advised them to have an
agreement or relationship to market to specific operations. *If an
operation opts out, then don't refer customers to them, but don't
offer up a specific operation until said agreement exists.

FAST packages are flight lessons, intended to grow soaring, not thrill
rides. *However, soaring is thrilling, adventurous, exciting, and
invitations to become involved long term should include this
emphasis. *It is an aero sport with awards, benchmarks, records, and
competition. *Individual participation in those aspects varies and the
promotion or stifling of those aspects by soaring organizations also
varies. *FAST packages should be part of the invitation to become
involved.

Should Headband LLC dba Soaring Sports be able to sell FAST packages
and refer to agreeable organizations? *An SSA member and help recently
sold FAST packages as a soaring promotion at Oshkosh, armed with a
list of SSA clubs and business members that participated in redeeming
packages. *So some will be contacted out of the blue that they got it
while at Oshkosh.

Soaring Adventures of America,www.800soaring.com, is a long time SSA
business member. *They are not selling FAST packages, but glider
rides. *If you check the locations, California and Colorado (both high
activity soaring states), are distinctly missing. *I suspect this is
probably part of the halo effect of the regionalized efforts against
the previously bad actions of IGO Vincent.

The questions are whether the price a third party will charge for
their marketing services is justified, that what they are marketing is
honestly described, and whether we allow them to use our 'product'.
If we do allow it, then we have something to say about the honesty.
Soaring Sports has been doing what they were asked to do, but they
were warned that 800skyride.com carried baggage. *Now if a soaring
organization also offers glider rides, that can also be an offering,
again with an established agreement/relationship, with or without SSA
business membership, FAST packages, or whatever. *It would be dumb to
offer anything without a redemption agreement.

I think we all agree that soaring needs promotion.

Frank Whiteley

Soaring does need promotion.

The FAST program is an excellent way to do that. *However, at $99
there is precious little profit opportunity for anyone. *It usually
works out as a shared loss between the club/operator and the SSA to
promote soaring which it is hoped benefits both in the long run.

There's no way for a middleman/marketer/distributor to profit unless
games are played with the money. *This is mainly betting on a low
redemption ratio but can also be a strong arm after-the-fact
negotiation with the the service provider to accept less money. *None
of these tactics reflect well on the SSA.

Saying that "800 Skyride/Soaring Sports" has some "baggage" is putting
it most kindly. *Dealing with an eager prospect who has paid an
exorbitant price on the internet for a voucher you can't redeem (BTDT)
doesn't lead to "baggage" it leads to a PR nightmare for soaring in
general.

I've seen the 3rd party marketeers try their game in several
businesses and it invariably fails miserably even if high margins are
possible since it forces large increases in the retail price cutting
demand.

We need more information from SSA HQ on this "deal" with Soaring
Sports.
We are a club, we do not advertise except through the SSA Where to Fly
web pages.
We are limited in how many students we can handle at a given time
because we only fly weekends, one primary 2-33 trainer and one tow
plane. There are times when we have a waiting list for new students
wanting to learn to fly.
We accept the SSA FAST certificates and keep a very small quantity
available to offer new students.
It is interesting that the call from soaring sports asking if we
accepted the SSA FAST certificate told us that we would have to redeem
"their" certificate with them for $50 and SSA for another $50. So we
would have to redeem it twice?

We are Las Vegas Valley Soaring Assoc, LVVSA,702.470.1420, at Jean NV
for over 20 years, a club not offering "rides for hire to the general
public. We have been visited my many SSA members from other clubs
around the country.

The commercial operator at Jean is Las Vegas Glider Rides or Las Vegas
Soaring Center, operated by John Michael Henderson,702.470.1010. Mr.
Henderson's companies are not listed on the SSA site as a Business
Partner. We do refer those one time riders not interested in lessons
to Mr Henderson.

Off group.
Was the Michael, offering expert advice in the Pawn Stars 2-33 glider
episode, Michael Henderson?

Frank Whiteley

Yes, and it was two different gliders.
T

On Aug 26, 9:43*pm, T wrote:
On Aug 24, 7:24*pm, Frank Whiteley wrote:


The commercial operator at Jean is Las Vegas Glider Rides or Las Vegas
Soaring Center, operated by John Michael Henderson,702.470.1010. Mr.
Henderson's companies are not listed on the SSA site as a Business
Partner. We do refer those one time riders not interested in lessons
to Mr Henderson.

Off group.
Was the Michael, offering expert advice in the Pawn Stars 2-33 glider
episode, Michael Henderson?

Frank Whiteley

Yes, and it was two different gliders.
T

Clearly, as the defunct Sailplane Enterprises name was on the flying
version;^)