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Groen Bros. DARPA Award



 
 
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  #21  
Old November 18th 05, 04:35 AM posted to rec.aviation.rotorcraft
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Default Gyro's was Groen Bros. DARPA Award

The OTHER Kevin in San Diego wrote:

He doesn't fly a white Gyro out of KSEE (Gillespie Field) does he???


SEEK AND YOU SHALL FIND.... Or something like that.

Just had a peek at an older browser I once used and there it was.

http://www.geocities.com/kenj_sandye...nsWebPage.html

Yupper's.... It's white.

Unfortunately it's been a few years since he's updated his page and
it's been a couple of years since he was a regular here.
  #22  
Old November 18th 05, 08:02 AM posted to rec.aviation.rotorcraft
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Default Gyro's was Groen Bros. DARPA Award

Shiver wrote:

He is a big big champion of the vertical (centerline) stabilizer on
gyros and I do believe has had his share of arguements with the
developers of the RAF gyros on this subject. He has talked about the
dangers of buntover with resulting death in this group at various
times.


Buntover??? In my reading I haven't run across that term. I know how to
keep from causing the normal spike knock, tail boom strikes, 0 G pitch
down and mast bumping problems. From the word, is it a forward
pitchover caused by the horizontal stabilizer being too low?

--

boB,
SAG 70

U.S. Army Aviation (retired)
Central Texas - 5NM West of Gray Army Airfield (KGRK)
  #23  
Old November 18th 05, 08:38 AM posted to rec.aviation.rotorcraft
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Default Gyro's was Groen Bros. DARPA Award

boB wrote:

Buntover??? In my reading I haven't run across that term. I know how to
keep from causing the normal spike knock, tail boom strikes, 0 G pitch
down and mast bumping problems. From the word, is it a forward
pitchover caused by the horizontal stabilizer being too low?


From the Groen Brothers website

http://www.americanautogyro.com/Cent...line%20Thrust%
20P1.htm

Watch for the URL wraparound

It's described in the first couple of paragraphs.

That link by the way is about four pages long and is interesting
reading.

If my feeble memory serves me correctly.... Oh Mr. Sandy Eggo where are
you......

Ken bought an RAF gyro that did not have a vertival stabilzer.

Correct me if I am wrong.

He became aware of various accidents involving buntover due to no
stabilizer and many of those pilots were killed or seriously injured.

As a result he became a convert to the idea of having a centerline
stabilzer added ( with dihedral I do believe ).

He got into arguements with the RAF people who I presume did not feel
it was necessary.

When Groen brothers offered a factory kit for his RAF gyro he sent it
off to them for upgrading and as far as I know he is a very satisfied
customer.
  #24  
Old November 18th 05, 09:25 AM posted to rec.aviation.rotorcraft
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Default Gyro's was Groen Bros. DARPA Award

Shiver wrote:
boB wrote:



Buntover??? In my reading I haven't run across that term. I know how to
keep from causing the normal spike knock, tail boom strikes, 0 G pitch
down and mast bumping problems. From the word, is it a forward
pitchover caused by the horizontal stabilizer being too low?



From the Groen Brothers website

http://www.americanautogyro.com/Cent...line%20Thrust%
20P1.htm

Watch for the URL wraparound

It's described in the first couple of paragraphs.

That link by the way is about four pages long and is interesting
reading.

If my feeble memory serves me correctly.... Oh Mr. Sandy Eggo where are
you......

Ken bought an RAF gyro that did not have a vertival stabilzer.

Correct me if I am wrong.

He became aware of various accidents involving buntover due to no
stabilizer and many of those pilots were killed or seriously injured.

As a result he became a convert to the idea of having a centerline
stabilzer added ( with dihedral I do believe ).

He got into arguements with the RAF people who I presume did not feel
it was necessary.

When Groen brothers offered a factory kit for his RAF gyro he sent it
off to them for upgrading and as far as I know he is a very satisfied
customer.


Thanks. I'll do some reading

--

boB,
SAG 70

U.S. Army Aviation (retired)
Central Texas - 5NM West of Gray Army Airfield (KGRK)
  #25  
Old November 18th 05, 08:50 PM posted to rec.aviation.rotorcraft
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Default Gyro's was Groen Bros. DARPA Award

The OTHER Kevin in San Diego wrote:

so chances are I've seen Ken terrorizing the airspace down there
within the past year.


Well if you ever run into him tell him to stick his head into the group
now and again and say howdy hi.

He was a well know and respected regular a few years ago.

Here's hoping he's spending lots of his free time flying up and down
the coast in his gyro.
  #26  
Old November 18th 05, 09:23 PM posted to rec.aviation.rotorcraft
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Default Gyro's was Groen Bros. DARPA Award

The OTHER Kevin in San Diego wrote:

but I don't stay
local much at all these days when I fly..


I was a little surprised when I was surfing Groen's site yesterday
and looked at the pricing info on the sparrowhawk kits.

35 thousand buckies seems kinda reasonable for a kit built gyro.

Have you ever considered a beast like that.

Seems like the main difference between that and a helicopter is you
can't take off vertical, and you can't hover.
  #27  
Old November 19th 05, 05:38 AM posted to rec.aviation.rotorcraft
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Default Gyro's was Groen Bros. DARPA Award

On Fri, 18 Nov 2005 12:12:43 -0800, in rec.aviation.rotorcraft, The OTHER
Kevin in San Diego skiddz "AT" adelphia "DOT" net said:

Well if you ever run into him tell him to stick his head into the group
now and again and say howdy hi.


Within the past year Ken J. sold his Sparrowhawk converted RAF-2000 gyroplane
and bought a very nice FAA certified McCullough J2 gyroplane. Last I heard he
was considering getting a commercial gyroplane rating.

Regards,

John L.
  #28  
Old November 19th 05, 06:39 AM posted to rec.aviation.rotorcraft
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Default Gyro's was Groen Bros. DARPA Award

John A. Landry wrote:

Within the past year Ken J. sold his Sparrowhawk converted RAF-2000 gyroplane
and bought a very nice FAA certified McCullough J2 gyroplane. Last I heard he
was considering getting a commercial gyroplane rating.


Well it's nice to hear he's still flying.

Next time you see him tell him we miss him.

Sheeeeeesh... I just Googles McCullough J2 gyroplane
and the info on the little beast is sure skimpy.

Found one mediocre picture buried in a page.

Anyone got a URL for their website.

Please and thank you.
  #29  
Old November 19th 05, 09:18 AM posted to rec.aviation.rotorcraft
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Default Gyro's was Groen Bros. DARPA Award

"boB" wrote in message
...
Shiver wrote:

He is a big big champion of the vertical (centerline) stabilizer on
gyros and I do believe has had his share of arguements with the
developers of the RAF gyros on this subject. He has talked about the
dangers of buntover with resulting death in this group at various
times.


Buntover??? In my reading I haven't run across that term. I know how to
keep from causing the normal spike knock, tail boom strikes, 0 G pitch
down and mast bumping problems. From the word, is it a forward pitchover
caused by the horizontal stabilizer being too low?

--

boB,
SAG 70


Buntover is just another term for a power push over (PPO). From what I've
gathered in my reading through the years, it's not as much an issue with the
horizontal stabilizer as it is with the placement of the engines thrust line
relative to the vertical CG of the aircraft. Gyros like the stock RAF2000
have the thrust line at a significant distance above the vertical CG of the
aircraft. That imparts a nose down moment when under power. The main
rotor, because it's tilted aft in flight, offers a counter force to the
forward pitching moment. If you unload the main rotor enough, there's not
counter force to that forward pitching moment caused by the engine thrust
line being above the CG and over she goes.

A properly placed and sized horizontal stab can go a long way toward
reducing the possibility of this problem but it doesn't address the root
cause. That being a thrust line that's not properly in line with the
vertical CG of the aircraft. At least that's my understanding. If I'm too
far off on this, I'm sure someone will correct me! :-)

Fly Safe,
Steve R.


  #30  
Old November 19th 05, 10:27 AM posted to rec.aviation.rotorcraft
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Default Gyro's was Groen Bros. DARPA Award

Steve R wrote:
"boB" wrote in message
...

Shiver wrote:


He is a big big champion of the vertical (centerline) stabilizer on
gyros and I do believe has had his share of arguements with the
developers of the RAF gyros on this subject. He has talked about the
dangers of buntover with resulting death in this group at various
times.


Buntover??? In my reading I haven't run across that term. I know how to
keep from causing the normal spike knock, tail boom strikes, 0 G pitch
down and mast bumping problems. From the word, is it a forward pitchover
caused by the horizontal stabilizer being too low?

--

boB,
SAG 70



Buntover is just another term for a power push over (PPO). From what I've
gathered in my reading through the years, it's not as much an issue with the
horizontal stabilizer as it is with the placement of the engines thrust line
relative to the vertical CG of the aircraft. Gyros like the stock RAF2000
have the thrust line at a significant distance above the vertical CG of the
aircraft. That imparts a nose down moment when under power. The main
rotor, because it's tilted aft in flight, offers a counter force to the
forward pitching moment. If you unload the main rotor enough, there's not
counter force to that forward pitching moment caused by the engine thrust
line being above the CG and over she goes.

A properly placed and sized horizontal stab can go a long way toward
reducing the possibility of this problem but it doesn't address the root
cause. That being a thrust line that's not properly in line with the
vertical CG of the aircraft. At least that's my understanding. If I'm too
far off on this, I'm sure someone will correct me! :-)

Fly Safe,
Steve R.



Thanks Steve. That sounds like two forces working against each other.
That doesn't seem to be efficient as far as strain on the systems.
Something similar on my Sprint II with the engine and prop above the
vertical CG. If the engine quits or even when throttling down the nose
pops up which screwed up my landings early on. I had been fixed on the
RAF2000 but hadn't really looked at the competition before. I
appreciate all the advice.


--

boB,
SAG 70

U.S. Army Aviation (retired)
Central Texas - 5NM West of Gray Army Airfield (KGRK)
 




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