Why no new diesel radials?

Why would one ruin a good virgin for oil?

"dje" wrote in message
...
I think:

SVO = Straight Virgin Oil
B100 = 100% biodeisel

David


wrote in message
oups.com...

wrote:


What I'd like to see someone work out a new turbine design with an
injector and hot section suitable for running on SVO or B100. Stick
that on a couple of 747's, diesel trains, and cruise liners and you
save thousands of tons of net-CO2 emissions a year.

Mind explaining what SVO and B100 are?

David Johnson

Cy Galley wrote:
Why would one ruin a good virgin for oil?


Because they outlawed sacrificing virgins for oil.

An elderly woman died a virgin, her tombstone reads "returned unopened."

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

wrote:
On-Condition wrote:
Just wondering, exactly why are radial diesels not part of the
diesel revival? You can't beat radials on airplanes for smooth
reliability. I once saw a cracked-off jug pounding through the
cowling as the engine was still running (the single Otter had
just landed).

Guiberson: 4 stroke 9 cylinder radial, 2 valves per cylinder, 300HP.

Packard: 4 stroke 9 cylinder 1 valve per cylinder (Neato) 225HP.

Zoche is a ported 2 stroke, if I recall it was supposed to be available
in 2 4 and 8 cylinders.


Well done.

DHC-6's (PT6) run on winter diesel in the north all the time
where turbine fuels are simply not available. Wouldn't know
about biodiesel but I've heard that fish-sourced biodiesel
(used in Halifax) tends to congeal a bit more than winter diesel.
I've always thought that summer fuel with a slight BTU/lb
edge added to lower cost was the way to go, even if it means
preheat with exhaust or whatever.

As for emissions, diesels appear dirty but are cleaner as far
as ozone is concerned. Might be the lesser of two evils.

Finally, walking the prop on a radial would clear lesser hydraulic
locks but I think the objective was more detection that cure.
This would not be much different for a diesel radial (out on a
limb on this). I sure would not look forward to having to swing
one though ;-)

dje wrote:
I think:

SVO = Straight Virgin Oil
B100 = 100% biodeisel

David


wrote in message
oups.com...

wrote:


What I'd like to see someone work out a new turbine design with an
injector and hot section suitable for running on SVO or B100. Stick
that on a couple of 747's, diesel trains, and cruise liners and you
save thousands of tons of net-CO2 emissions a year.

Mind explaining what SVO and B100 are?

David Johnson


SVO = straight vegetable oil
B100 = biodiesel.

I vaguely remember a B80, though I'm not sure if that is a blend or
what.

I expect there is an ISO standard for biodiesel by now.

-Matt

I'd be interested in reading anything on the practice of using diesel
and biodiesel in turbines your refering too. Did you read this
somewhere, or is that from experience? Have you actually heard of
Biodiesel being used in jets? Or is your reference to biodiesel gelling
related to cars?

Regarding Hydraulic lock I was thinking more preventatively. Like going
to the hanger once a week and walking through a few blades regardless
of whether you were actually going flying. Though I would figure at
15/1 it would require much less oil to frag the engine than at 7.5/1.

I'm probably overthinking the problem. Anybody know how the Guiberson
was mounted in the Stuart tank? Was it on it's back or was it mounted
upright like it would be in an airplane?

Shoot. Somebody ought to just take one out and strap it to Beech 18 and
go flying. Then give us all a pilot report to tell us what the the deal
really is. :-)

-Matt

wrote:
I'd be interested in reading anything on the practice of using diesel
and biodiesel in turbines your refering too. Did you read this
somewhere, or is that from experience? Have you actually heard of
Biodiesel being used in jets? Or is your reference to biodiesel gelling
related to cars?

The first time I heard of biodiesel was in a documentary about some
Halifax buses. They use fisheries byproducts. They have had to deal
with gelling, though Halifax winters are not all that cold.

No knowledge or experience involving biodiesel in turbines, but winter
diesel is/was being used by DHC6's in the artic about half of the time
since turbine fuel is only available at the main bases. Their PT6's
are in fact derated to 600 shp as suggested
for another airplane type. I never saw any technical documentation
on this, it being common practice.

Regarding Hydraulic lock I was thinking more preventatively. Like going
to the hanger once a week and walking through a few blades regardless
of whether you were actually going flying. Though I would figure at
15/1 it would require much less oil to frag the engine than at 7.5/1.

No doubt, but I think either ratio will suffice as soon as you start,
especially with one of the inertial starters that just won't stop
once engaged. Walking the props used to be mandatory in the military
where even a desk gets a walkaround twice a day ;-)

In article FcpYe.269629$tt5.163046@edtnps90, On-Condition wrote:
............

No doubt, but I think either ratio will suffice as soon as you start,
especially with one of the inertial starters that just won't stop
once engaged. Walking the props used to be mandatory in the military
where even a desk gets a walkaround twice a day ;-)

Just what is an "inertial starter"?

I have seen references to them, mostly in literature about
airplanes built before the 1940s. But I have never seen a
description of one, or an explanation of how it is different
from any other type of starter.

On-Condition wrote:
wrote:
I'd be interested in reading anything on the practice of using diesel
and biodiesel in turbines your refering too. Did you read this
somewhere, or is that from experience? Have you actually heard of
Biodiesel being used in jets? Or is your reference to biodiesel gelling
related to cars?

The first time I heard of biodiesel was in a documentary about some
Halifax buses. They use fisheries byproducts. They have had to deal
with gelling, though Halifax winters are not all that cold.


To get a little OT, there is a lot of neat stuff being done right now
with biomass hydrocarbons. (veggie oil, fish oil etc.) The bugaboo
seems to be injector coking in direct injection engines, though actual
experienced rate of coking from one motor to the next is a point of
huge debate in the alternative fuel crowd these days. Indirect
piston-pump injected engines will apparently run on straight veggie oil
reasonably well with few ill effects or modifications.

These guys are heating the oil and running straight to the motor.
Apparently the added energy causes the long stranded molecules to burn
cleaner which is what averts the coking. I'd be highly interested in
seeing somebody do that with an allison 250 and what the results were.

No knowledge or experience involving biodiesel in turbines, but winter
diesel is/was being used by DHC6's in the artic about half of the time
since turbine fuel is only available at the main bases. Their PT6's
are in fact derated to 600 shp as suggested
for another airplane type. I never saw any technical documentation
on this, it being common practice.

Regarding Hydraulic lock I was thinking more preventatively. Like going
to the hanger once a week and walking through a few blades regardless
of whether you were actually going flying. Though I would figure at
15/1 it would require much less oil to frag the engine than at 7.5/1.

No doubt, but I think either ratio will suffice as soon as you start,
especially with one of the inertial starters that just won't stop
once engaged. Walking the props used to be mandatory in the military
where even a desk gets a walkaround twice a day ;-)

My point was that diesels start at 15/1 and gas engines are around 7/1
or 8/1 So oil leakage in a diesel should increase cylinder pressure
way faster than it would in a gas engine. For example: an ounce of
excess oil in a gas engine my increase the cylinder pressure by 10% or
so, the same ounce in a diesel of the same displacement would increase
the pressure by much more than 10%. At a higher pressure the mass of
the air displaced by a constant uncompressable volume (the oil)
increases.

Obviously you don't have to fill the cylinder completely with oil to do
a lot of damage. Just increase the pressure in the jug to the point
were rings crack or bolts become fatigued. With the four strokes you
walk the blades, the valves open and the oil that leaked past the lower
rings dribbles into the exhaust stack. With the Zoche there is no
valve, so once oil dribbles into the cylinders past the rings, how do
you get it out? I would guess the only way to clear a lock or to
prevent an over-pressure from a partial hydraulic lock would be to
remove the injector and cycle the engine. Or perhaps the porting design
prevents it? I don't know.

I saw that there is a diesel CH701 flying with the engine out of a
Mercedes Smart. I'd love to read more about that bird but haven't been
able to find any good info.

-Matt

me wrote:
In article FcpYe.269629$tt5.163046@edtnps90, On-Condition wrote:

............


No doubt, but I think either ratio will suffice as soon as you start,
especially with one of the inertial starters that just won't stop
once engaged. Walking the props used to be mandatory in the military
where even a desk gets a walkaround twice a day ;-)


Just what is an "inertial starter"?

I have seen references to them, mostly in literature about
airplanes built before the 1940s. But I have never seen a
description of one, or an explanation of how it is different
from any other type of starter.


If memory serves the term refers to wind up starters. If you have
ever seen "The Great Escape" they had one on the airplane James Garner
and Donald Pleasence flew in.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

"me" wrote in message
news:OYEYe.4264$yN1.2550@trnddc03...
In article FcpYe.269629$tt5.163046@edtnps90, On-Condition
wrote:
............

No doubt, but I think either ratio will suffice as soon as you start,
especially with one of the inertial starters that just won't stop
once engaged. Walking the props used to be mandatory in the military
where even a desk gets a walkaround twice a day ;-)

Just what is an "inertial starter"?

I have seen references to them, mostly in literature about
airplanes built before the 1940s. But I have never seen a
description of one, or an explanation of how it is different
from any other type of starter.


Inertial Starter: Flywheel spun up by a geared hand crank then clutched to
engine to hopefully start it before all the energy in the flywheel is
consumed - slightly lighter than a battery, generator and electric starter.
Used on airplanes without electrical systems.

Bill Daniels