The need for original documents, N-reg aircraft?

Peter wrote
There are various documents such as the cert of airworthiness, and
(for an N-reg in Europe) the FAA radio license, which some say need to
be carried in original.

The Radio License doesn't come from the FAA, it is isued by the FCC.

Bob Moore

You must have the original documents, as issued by the
proper government agency. The FAA may send you a fax copy
which can be used within the USA, but if outside the USA you
must have originals (they can be government issued
duplicates.)



--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

"Peter" wrote in message
...
|
| Bob Moore wrote
|
| There are various documents such as the cert of
airworthiness, and
| (for an N-reg in Europe) the FAA radio license, which
some say need to
| be carried in original.
|
| The Radio License doesn't come from the FAA, it is isued
by the FCC.
|
| That's right. One has to pay for it, too.
|
| It was the *original* docs requirement that concerns me. I
was pretty
| sure it is false.

Yes, but on the holiday I'm busy and don't have all the time
to look up the ref. for you. But it is in the FAR and the
"orders" the FAA issues.
here is start...

Title 14: Aeronautics and Space
PART 91-GENERAL OPERATING AND FLIGHT RULES
Subpart C-Equipment, Instrument, and Certificate
Requirements


Browse Previous | Browse Next


§ 91.203 Civil aircraft: Certifications required.
(a) Except as provided in §91.715, no person may operate a
civil aircraft unless it has within it the following:

(1) An appropriate and current airworthiness certificate.
Each U.S. airworthiness certificate used to comply with this
subparagraph (except a special flight permit, a copy of the
applicable operations specifications issued under §21.197(c)
of this chapter, appropriate sections of the air carrier
manual required by parts 121 and 135 of this chapter
containing that portion of the operations specifications
issued under §21.197(c), or an authorization under §91.611)
must have on it the registration number assigned to the
aircraft under part 47 of this chapter. However, the
airworthiness certificate need not have on it an assigned
special identification number before 10 days after that
number is first affixed to the aircraft. A revised
airworthiness certificate having on it an assigned special
identification number, that has been affixed to an aircraft,
may only be obtained upon application to an FAA Flight
Standards district office.

(2) An effective U.S. registration certificate issued to its
owner or, for operation within the United States, the second
duplicate copy (pink) of the Aircraft Registration
Application as provided for in §47.31(b), or a registration
certificate issued under the laws of a foreign country.

(b) No person may operate a civil aircraft unless the
airworthiness certificate required by paragraph (a) of this
section or a special flight authorization issued under
§91.715 is displayed at the cabin or cockpit entrance so
that it is legible to passengers or crew.

(c) No person may operate an aircraft with a fuel tank
installed within the passenger compartment or a baggage
compartment unless the installation was accomplished
pursuant to part 43 of this chapter, and a copy of FAA Form
337 authorizing that installation is on board the aircraft.

(d) No person may operate a civil airplane (domestic or
foreign) into or out of an airport in the United States
unless it complies with the fuel venting and exhaust
emissions requirements of part 34 of this chapter.

[Doc. No. 18334, 54 FR 34292, Aug. 18, 1989, as amended by
Amdt. 91-218, 55 FR 32861, Aug. 10, 1990]



Title 14: Aeronautics and Space
PART 47-AIRCRAFT REGISTRATION
Subpart B-Certificates of Aircraft Registration


Browse Previous | Browse Next


§ 47.49 Replacement of Certificate.
(a) If a Certificate of Aircraft Registration is lost,
stolen, or mutilated, the holder of the Certificate of
Aircraft Registration may apply to the FAA Aircraft Registry
for a duplicate certificate, accompanying his application
with the fee required by §47.17.

(b) If the holder has applied and has paid the fee for a
duplicate Certificate of Aircraft Registration and needs to
operate his aircraft before receiving it, he may request a
temporary certificate. The FAA Aircraft Registry issues a
temporary certificate, by a collect telegram, to be carried
in the aircraft. This temporary certificate is valid until
he receives the duplicate Certicate of Aircraft
Registration.


Browse Previous | Browse Next






"Peter" wrote in message
...
|
| "Jim Macklin" wrote
|
| You must have the original documents, as issued by the
| proper government agency. The FAA may send you a fax
copy
| which can be used within the USA, but if outside the USA
you
| must have originals (they can be government issued
| duplicates.)
|
| Do you have a reference for the above?

"Peter" wrote in message
...

"Jim Macklin" wrote:

Yes, but on the holiday I'm busy and don't have all the time
to look up the ref. for you. But it is in the FAR and the
"orders" the FAA issues.
here is start...

Title 14: Aeronautics and Space
PART 91-GENERAL OPERATING AND FLIGHT RULES
Subpart C-Equipment, Instrument, and Certificate
Requirements
[snip]

It doesn't actually state that the *original* must be carried.

It does imply in

The FAA Aircraft Registry issues a
temporary certificate, by a collect telegram, to be carried
in the aircraft. This temporary certificate is valid until
he receives the duplicate Certicate of Aircraft
Registration.

that if a temporary certificate is the only one about, then it needs
to be carried, but again it doesn't say that the actual piece of paper
received from the FAA has to be inside the aircraft.

Obviously, the reason I ask this is because carrying original
documents is not safe; if they get lost it is a major hassle, here in
Europe where e.g. the French are occassionally hostile to U.S.
registered aircraft.

More like persistently hostile. even more hostile when the certificates are
not government issued.

If you carry around the real free circulation certificate it makes no sense
not to have the other originals in the plane.

On Thu, 24 Nov 2005 23:20:45 +0000, Peter
wrote:


I disagree, but anyway that is not the question I was asking. I was
looking for a reference for a requirement to carry *originals* in an
N-reg.

I don't believe there is such a requirement, despite frequent
"information" posted in the usual places. But there is no harm in
asking.

I'd posit that there's reasonable evidence to infer the original must
be carried, absent the specific wording you are looking for saying
that you have to use the original.

The certificate itself has "This certificate must be carried when the
aircraft is operated" (or something very close, I don't have mine in
front of me right now) printed on it in the upper-right hand corner.

The FAA makes a large deal about the application for registration
having to be done in original and signed in ink, no copies or
electronic versions allowed. They also state that the pink copy of
the application must be carried in the aircraft until the permanent
certificate is received. In the documentation for 8050-1 they don't
indicate that a photocopy of the pink temporary slip would be
acceptable, but specifically enumerating that the *pink* copy must be
carried (and reinforcing it in 47.31(b)) indicates that they intend on
the original pink copy being used, not a photocopy. It would be
reasonable to ask why would that requirement change once you get the
real card?

91.203(a)(2) also states specifically the pink copy, implying that an
original of the other two acceptable forms (effective U.S.
registration certificate, or a registration certificate issued under
the laws of a foreign country) would need to be an original as well.

47.49 deals with replacing a lost, stolen, or mutilated registration.
Paragraph B states that if you need to operate your aircraft before a
duplicate is received, you can get a collect telegram which must be
carried in the aircraft. Why would they require an original of the
collect telegraph, or an official FAA fax, if you could just photocopy
the original certificate for the aircraft, then lock it away, and
subsequently make additional copies to carry any time the photocopy
carried in the aircraft is misplaced, lost, whatever?

Although appearing to address operations outside the US,
http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/e...a/2_044_01.pdf
para 2(a)(2)(b) states "The regulations do not authorize operation
outside the United States unless an actual registration certificate is
in the aircraft. However, the Aircraft Registration Branch, AFS-750,
will, upon request from the owner, fax a copy of the registration to
the individual whose name appears on the application as the registered
owner. The faxed copy may be used as a temporary registration until
the owner receives original registration. As with the original
registration certificate, the copy must be carried in the aircraft." I
would postulate that if they really wanted to violate someone under
91.203 for carrying a photocopy, they'd pull that last sentence out as
additional evidence of their intent that an original be carried.

I believe they'd also go as far as to point out that there are other
certificates (a-la pilots, medical) which must also be carried per
61.3. 61.3(a)(1) deals with the pilot certificate, and nowhere there
does it say it must be original, but it is implied by coupling it in
paragraph (2) with a Government-issued photo ID. A photocopy of your
drivers license isn't Government issued. 61.3(c)(1) deals with the
medical, and a case can be made that a photocopy of your medical isn't
issued under part 67, so it has to be original too. Why would the
registration be special if all the other documents have to be
original?

Just my 0x02c.
P

Peter Clark wrote:

I believe they'd also go as far as to point out that there are other
certificates (a-la pilots, medical) which must also be carried per
61.3. 61.3(a)(1) deals with the pilot certificate, and nowhere there
does it say it must be original, but it is implied by coupling it in
paragraph (2) with a Government-issued photo ID.

This matter came under discussion at a Wings meeting. The inspector giving the
lecture said that the FARs require that "this certificate" be carried, and that
means what it says. Only the original is legal. The topic under discussion was
pilots' certificates, not airworthiness certificates, but if the wording is the
same in the FARs, then I'd bet the FAA has the same interpretation.

George Patterson
We don't stop playing because we grow old. We grow old because we stop
playing.

On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 16:10:24 +0000, Peter
wrote:

In which case, what could be the sanction if an original was not on
board? (Forget the case of the French Customs for the moment; they are
a law unto themselves).

In the US they would notify you of the alleged violation, give you a
chance to respond, and assuming you were found responsible they would
then impose whatever legal sanction is available to them for
violations 61.3 or 91.203(2). If an original is required (and it
appears to me that it is), carrying around a copy is the same as not
having it "in that person's physical possession or readily accessible
in the aircraft when exercising the privileges of that pilot
certificate or authorization", or WRT the registration/airworthiness
certificates, "displayed at the cabin or cockpit entrance so that it
is legible to passengers or crew." They would end up either
suspending for some length of time, or revoking your certificate(s)
depending on whatever other factors surround the incident and your
enforcement record.

Peter wrote:

What would happen if the original was not on board, and there was an
incident?

As far as a pilot's certificate is concerned, if you don't have that handy and
get caught flying an aircraft, the FAA would issue a violation.

IME the first thing the insurance company checks is that all paperwork
is in order. So, if e.g. the pilot was not licensed to do the flight,
the insurer will walk away from it right away.

This is not true. If the aircraft was actually unairworthy (eg. expired annual),
then the insurer would walk away. If the pilot did not have a pilot's
certificate at all, or was not rated for that category and class of aircraft,
then the insurer would walk away. If you have all the paperwork but don't happen
to have it in the plane, you're still insured.

Read your policy. It will tell you what they cover and what they don't.

George Patterson
We don't stop playing because we grow old. We grow old because we stop
playing.

Peter wrote:
In the totalitarian communist countries an adult had to carry an
internal passport / ID document, and if this was not carried, and he
got stopped and checked, he'd be locked up until somebody produced the
documents. I don't think the USA, or any other western country would
do this.

you seem to be wrong

http://www.papersplease.org/

--Sylvain

Peter wrote:

In the totalitarian communist countries an adult had to carry an
internal passport / ID document, and if this was not carried, and he
got stopped and checked, he'd be locked up until somebody produced the
documents. I don't think the USA, or any other western country would
do this.

In Atlanta in 1973, failure to produce identification on the request of a police
officer would get you jailed. You did get to explain the situation to a judge
within a couple days. I think the Federal courts eventually forbad that
practice, but I'm not sure when.

George Patterson
We don't stop playing because we grow old. We grow old because we stop
playing.