Student as PIC in IMC?

wrote in message
...

So, it is possible for someone to log PIC flight time who has a pilot
certificate with ratings valid for the aircraft (e.g. PPSEL), but no BFR
or current
medical if they were the sole manipulator of the controls? If that is the
case, then
this person could go fly with a current pilot rated for the aircraft, and
they both
log PIC... one as sole manipulator and one as the legal "acting as PIC".

In this case, yes, because the acting PIC is a required crew member. The
same is true of a safety pilot who is acting as PIC.


Hrm... that sounds fishy, because it means whenever two pilots fly
together,
they can both log all the time as PIC... whomever isn't physically flying
can be
legally acting as PIC at the same time.

However, the acting PIC must be required by the aircraft or operation to be
a crew member in order for him to log PIC while not manipulating the
controls. A buddy just along for the ride may not log PIC, though the FAA
and everybody else may consider him to be acting PIC. There is one case of
an ATP who was considered to be PIC even though he was sleeping in the back
seat of a light twin. A CFI and private pilot were actually sitting up
front. The airplane had an accident while the ATP was asleep, and the FAA
considered him to be PIC even though the ATP and both the other pilots
insisted he was not. He could not log the time, however, because he was not
an essential crew member.

A flight instructor logs all the time he is giving instruction as PIC,
though there may be any number of reasons (currency, medical, etc.) that he
cannot act as PIC.

Say you have a plane carrying ten passengers plus crew. Up front you have a
pilot, an instructor who is giving the pilot instruction, and an examiner
who is reviewing the instructor. In the back you have a rated pilot who is
performing the duties of the required flight attendant but is also acting as
PIC. All of the pilots in this case may log PIC, but only the guy in back is
acting as PIC.

George and Mike, both rated pilots, fly up to Newtown in a Cessna 172 for
the college game. George flies the airplane and Mike acts as PIC. Only
George can log PIC even though Mike is acting as PIC.

Bill, a rated pilot but not a flight instructor, takes his friend Jill for a
ride in his Warrior. Jill holds no certificate and has never even been in a
plane before, but Bill lets her fly the airplane for awhile. Bill continues
to act as PIC. It is fairly evident that Jill can neither act as PIC nor log
the time as PIC. But does Bill log PIC during the time Jill is handling the
controls? You could argue it both ways: Bill is a required crew member and
should log the time; or you could say that he is not really required and is
unable to log the time. I tend to go with the former view because Bill could
also just set the autopilot and still log the time as PIC even though
*nobody*, strictly speaking, is handling the controls and Bill and Jill are
in the back of the airplane having a picnic.

wrote:
So, it is possible for someone to log PIC flight time who has a pilot
certificate with ratings valid for the aircraft (e.g. PPSEL), but no BFR
or current
medical if they were the sole manipulator of the controls?

Yes.


If that is the case, then
this person could go fly with a current pilot rated for the aircraft, and
they both
log PIC... one as sole manipulator and one as the legal "acting as PIC".

The pilot flying logs it, the other pilot acts as PIC but cannot log PIC.


Hrm... that sounds fishy, because it means whenever two pilots fly
together,
they can both log all the time as PIC... whomever isn't physically flying
can be
legally acting as PIC at the same time.

It's incorrect.


Also, if that's true then I've got more high-performance/complex time than
I
thought (sole manipulator without endorsement, buy flying with rated,
endorsed pilot).

Correct. Now you go tell the other guy he cannot log it and should remove
the time from his logbook.

Hilton

Funny, I have the same goal of going to the checkride with 10 hours of
actual. But unfortunately it's scheduled for Tuesday June 1st, I only
have 8 hours, and the days I'm flying between now and the checkride
don't appear to offer much hope. I'm not flying today and the
ceilings are 1600 feet, oh well. Good luck on your ride.

Dave

"Geo. Anderson" wrote in message ...
I'll be taking my checkride in a few weeks and one of my goals has been
to have at least 10 hours of actual IMC before I take the ride. It's
going well; I'm at 9.1 and only 2 of those were just boring a hole in
clouds on a cross country.

I have been under the impression that I could log PIC time when under
the hood but not in actual IMC, because I am not rated. Last night,
however, I read something in the ASA oral test prep book that seemed to
imply that this was not the case.

So, assembled wizards, should I be logging PIC time in IMC? or not?

tia,
Geo. Anderson

C J Campbell wrote:

: wrote in message
: ...
:
: So, it is possible for someone to log PIC flight time who has a pilot
: certificate with ratings valid for the aircraft (e.g. PPSEL), but no BFR
: or current
: medical if they were the sole manipulator of the controls? If that is the
: case, then
: this person could go fly with a current pilot rated for the aircraft, and
: they both
: log PIC... one as sole manipulator and one as the legal "acting as PIC".

: In this case, yes, because the acting PIC is a required crew member. The
: same is true of a safety pilot who is acting as PIC.

I've looked through the FARs some and.... *zzzzzzzzz*.... Oh, sorry... I
haven't found where it stipulates what constitutes a "required crew member," except in
the obvious case of an aircraft that requires it. Also, for a safety-pilot for a
rated pilot under the hood, things are rather clear (PIC vs. SIC is mainly a matter of
agreement as to who is acting as PIC). In the non-current case above, however, it's
not clear to me that the current/rated pilot is "required." Of course it makes sense
that he would be required, because the aircraft cannot be legally flown (i.e. *acting*
as PIC) by the noncurrent pilot.

: Bill, a rated pilot but not a flight instructor, takes his friend Jill for a
: ride in his Warrior. Jill holds no certificate and has never even been in a
: plane before, but Bill lets her fly the airplane for awhile. Bill continues
: to act as PIC. It is fairly evident that Jill can neither act as PIC nor log
: the time as PIC. But does Bill log PIC during the time Jill is handling the
: controls? You could argue it both ways: Bill is a required crew member and
: should log the time; or you could say that he is not really required and is
: unable to log the time. I tend to go with the former view because Bill could
: also just set the autopilot and still log the time as PIC even though
: *nobody*, strictly speaking, is handling the controls and Bill and Jill are
: in the back of the airplane having a picnic.

Basically the same as above, except the question of Jill logging the time is
moot, since she is not rated in the category/class/[type]. Don't the regs only allow
manipulation of the controls by a rated person (strictly speaking) unless a CFI is
PIC?

....head...hurting...now....

-Cory


--
************************************************** ***********************
* The prime directive of Linux: *
* - learn what you don't know, *
* - teach what you do. *
* (Just my 20 USm$) *
************************************************** ***********************

On Wed, 26 May 2004 12:18:06 +0000 (UTC),
wrote:

Hrm... that sounds fishy, because it means whenever two pilots fly together,
they can both log all the time as PIC... whomever isn't physically flying can be
legally acting as PIC at the same time.

You are misinterpreting.

In the situation you are discussing, the pilot NOT flying can only log PIC
if two (2) pilots are required by the regulations (or by the type of a/c).
In the type of flights we generally engage in, the only time that occurs is
when a safety pilot is required.

So, although the pilot NOT flying may be acting as PIC, he may NOT be able
to log PIC time.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

On Wed, 26 May 2004 20:53:09 +0000 (UTC),
wrote:

I've looked through the FARs some and.... *zzzzzzzzz*.... Oh, sorry... I
haven't found where it stipulates what constitutes a "required crew member,"

That phrase is NOT used in the FAR's that describe the conditions under
which PIC may be logged. So it really doesn't matter that you fell asleep
while trying to find it :-).


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

Whew! And I thought this would be one of those short, one or two
replies, threads. Thanks, guys. I'm going back to revise some logging.

Geo.

wrote in message
...

Basically the same as above, except the question of Jill logging the time
is
moot, since she is not rated in the category/class/[type]. Don't the regs
only allow
manipulation of the controls by a rated person (strictly speaking) unless
a CFI is
PIC?


No. The regulations allow anyone to manipulate the controls for a part 91
flight.

C J Campbell wrote:
: wrote in message
: ...
:
: Basically the same as above, except the question of Jill logging the time
: is
: moot, since she is not rated in the category/class/[type]. Don't the regs
: only allow
: manipulation of the controls by a rated person (strictly speaking) unless
: a CFI is
: PIC?
:

: No. The regulations allow anyone to manipulate the controls for a part 91
: flight.

Just curious where. Also, if a pilot takes a non-pilot flying, according to
FAR 61.51(e)(iii):

(iii) Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on
which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or
the regulations under which the flight is conducted.

the pilot cannot log PIC time for the duration he/she is not physically manipulating
the controls? That's the way it would appear.


Boy, if that's the case there are an awful lot of planes flying around with
unloggable PICs

-Cory


--
************************************************** ***********************
* The prime directive of Linux: *
* - learn what you don't know, *
* - teach what you do. *
* (Just my 20 USm$) *
************************************************** ***********************

wrote in message
...
C J Campbell wrote:
: wrote in message
: ...
:
: Basically the same as above, except the question of Jill logging the
time
: is
: moot, since she is not rated in the category/class/[type]. Don't the
regs
: only allow
: manipulation of the controls by a rated person (strictly speaking)
unless
: a CFI is
: PIC?
:

: No. The regulations allow anyone to manipulate the controls for a part
91
: flight.

Just curious where. Also, if a pilot takes a non-pilot flying, according
to
FAR 61.51(e)(iii):

(iii) Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as pilot in command of an
aircraft on
which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the
aircraft or
the regulations under which the flight is conducted.

the pilot cannot log PIC time for the duration he/she is not physically
manipulating
the controls? That's the way it would appear.


That was brought up earlier in the thread. You could argue it either way.
What do you log while the plane is on autopilot?