Student as PIC in IMC?

C J Campbell wrote:
: manipulating
: the controls? That's the way it would appear.
:

: That was brought up earlier in the thread. You could argue it either way.
: What do you log while the plane is on autopilot?

In the autopilot case, one could argue that the act of engaging the autopilot
is "manipulating the flight controls." If that's not the case, the apparently if the
autopilot is on, then nobody can log PIC time (unless the pilot is solo).

I understand the comment previously about the "required crew member" not
pertaining to loggable time. Basically, if the acting PIC isn't touching the
controls, solo, or operating where "more than one pilot is required," (read: simulated
instrument safety pilot or big iron requiring more than one pilot), the acting PIC
cannot log the time.

Hrm....

-Cory


--
************************************************** ***********************
* The prime directive of Linux: *
* - learn what you don't know, *
* - teach what you do. *
* (Just my 20 USm$) *
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"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
...
C J Campbell wrote:
: wrote in message
: ...
:
: Basically the same as above, except the question of Jill logging the
time
: is
: moot, since she is not rated in the category/class/[type]. Don't the
regs
: only allow
: manipulation of the controls by a rated person (strictly speaking)
unless
: a CFI is
: PIC?
:

: No. The regulations allow anyone to manipulate the controls for a part
91
: flight.

Just curious where. Also, if a pilot takes a non-pilot flying,
according
to
FAR 61.51(e)(iii):

(iii) Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as pilot in command of
an
aircraft on
which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of
the
aircraft or
the regulations under which the flight is conducted.

the pilot cannot log PIC time for the duration he/she is not physically
manipulating
the controls? That's the way it would appear.


That was brought up earlier in the thread. You could argue it either way.
What do you log while the plane is on autopilot?
Every flight must have a PIC to ensure the safe conduct of the flight. A
piece of hardware (autopilot) cannot fill this requirement. All the
qualified pilots on board should agree who will be the PIC before the
flight.

It is interesting that an autopilot is equivalent to a pilot-made-of-meat on
some planes, however. I've been told that large planes used to require
either a 3-person crew (captain, first officer, navigator) but an autopilot
could be substituted for the navigator.

William W. Plummer wrote:
: Every flight must have a PIC to ensure the safe conduct of the flight. A
: piece of hardware (autopilot) cannot fill this requirement. All the
: qualified pilots on board should agree who will be the PIC before the
: flight.

Right, but since this whole thing is a semantic argument about FAR minutia, it
requires being specific. What does it mean to "have a PIC?" An aircraft cannot be
legally operated unless someone is qualified to act as PIC on it. That's apparently a
different entity from *logging* PIC.

While it's true that qualified pilots on board should agree a-priori who will
be PIC, the trouble comes one of them cannot act as PIC. For example, Joe has PP-SEL
without high-performance, complex. Billy-Bob has PP-SEL with the endorsements. If
the two go flying a Comanche-250 and Joe drives, Joe gets to log it, but Billy-Bob is
acting PIC and cannot log it. If Joe drives under the hood, he can even log simulated
instrument time in this plane he cannot act as PIC in.

What a cluster-f*ck.

-Cory


--
************************************************** ***********************
* The prime directive of Linux: *
* - learn what you don't know, *
* - teach what you do. *
* (Just my 20 USm$) *
************************************************** ***********************

"William W. Plummer" wrote in message
news:juntc.70708$gr.6808104@attbi_s52...

Every flight must have a PIC to ensure the safe conduct of the flight.

Nothing in the regulations says so. Neither does it have anything to do with
logging PIC.

On Thu, 27 May 2004 15:15:29 +0000 (UTC),
wrote:

While it's true that qualified pilots on board should agree a-priori who will
be PIC, the trouble comes one of them cannot act as PIC. For example, Joe has PP-SEL
without high-performance, complex. Billy-Bob has PP-SEL with the endorsements. If
the two go flying a Comanche-250 and Joe drives, Joe gets to log it, but Billy-Bob is
acting PIC and cannot log it. If Joe drives under the hood, he can even log simulated
instrument time in this plane he cannot act as PIC in.

Yes, you understand it correctly.

And the regs have been this way for many years.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

C J Campbell wrote:
: No. The regulations allow anyone to manipulate the controls for a part 91
: flight.

I cannot find that part of the regulation. Any coordinates?

Also, if it's not illegal to have a non-pilot manipulating the controls, then
for the duration of time that non-pilot is maniuplating the controls, nobody can log
PIC, correct?

-Cory



--
************************************************** ***********************
* The prime directive of Linux: *
* - learn what you don't know, *
* - teach what you do. *
* (Just my 20 USm$) *
************************************************** ***********************

wrote in
:

C J Campbell wrote:
: No. The regulations allow anyone to manipulate the controls for a part
: 91 flight.

I cannot find that part of the regulation. Any coordinates?

That follows from the concept that anything not specifically prohibited is
permitted. Part 135 and Part 121 prohibit manipulation of the controls by
non-crewmembers, with specific exceptions.

--
Regards,

Stan

Every flight must have a PIC to ensure the safe conduct of the flight. A
piece of hardware (autopilot) cannot fill this requirement.


Hmmm... what about RPVs? Who (if anybody) gets to log what, and why?

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

Also, if it's not illegal to have a non-pilot manipulating the controls, then
for the duration of time that non-pilot is maniuplating the controls, nobody
can log
PIC, correct?


I consider the non-pilot to be an organic autopilot, and log the time.

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

In article ,
(Teacherjh) wrote:


Every flight must have a PIC to ensure the safe conduct of the flight. A
piece of hardware (autopilot) cannot fill this requirement.


Hmmm... what about RPVs? Who (if anybody) gets to log what, and why?

Every RPV has an "operator" (not sure what term they use) sitting at a
computer console somewhere (perhaps halfway around the world). My
understanding is that they do indeed get to log PIC time.

Nobody says the PIC has to be inside the aircraft :-)