Need help with a rocket motor ID

Henry_H@Q wrote:

"William R Thompson" wrote:

[snip]

That's what I was taught when getting my degrees in hysteria, er, history.
My favorite example has to do with the "Nuts!" event at Bastogne.
There are several accounts of exactly what was said; the accounts
come from people who were there--and they don't match up.

After my first reply to this message I did some Googleing. I still
can't find any mention of the "Nuts" document.

However, I did find this on wiki:

The 1947-1949 Freedom Train was proposed by Attorney General Tom C.
Clark as a way to reawaken Americans to their taken-for-granted
principles of liberty in the post-war years. The idea soon got the
approval of President Harry S. Truman and everything else fell into
place. Top Marines were selected to attend to the train and its famous
documents. The Marine contingent was led by Col. Robert F. Scott.

Well-armed and alert, I trust. The Liberty Bell had been sent on an
earlier tour (in the Twenties, I think--details escape me) during which
tour bits and pieces were hacked off the rim as souvenirs.

I am very sceptical of authority in reference sources, I certainly
don't think the EB is very authorative. "Trust everyone, but cut the
cards, anyway."

The history department's attitude was "multiple references, please,
and even then we may laugh."

But, as a friend use to say "Even a blind pig finds some nuts."

There are a LOT of nuts on wiki.

Both metric and SAE.

--Bill Thompson

Henry_H@Q_ wrote:

I meant to say that although Truax didn't have the right answer for
airplanes, that work lead directly on to the whole world of hypergols
in the US, many, many vehicles and engine/motors.

Got it. He did come up with some brilliant design work, which
he must have know were inappropriate for aircraft. Most rocketeers
of the time had their eye on spaceflight and had to search hard to
justify their projects. There was considerable opposition to wasting
resources on "that Buck Rogers stuff."

Those are the same figures in Sutton's "Rocket Propulsion Elements."
I figure that Mano Zeigler gave different numbers in "Rocket Fighter"
due to conditions in Axisland--with the Allies bombing their plants
and supply lines, they may have had to settle for anything that could
flow through the lines and burn.

If I remember the book, and I am pretty sure I do, it was sort of a
"quick and dirty" account based on very limited sources. I think I
first read it myself only a couple of years after the war, so it has
been around a while. A lot of documentation showed up later that the
author didn't have then.

I checked the copyright dates in my book, and the oldest date for
"Rocket Fighter" is 1961. I vaguely recall seeing another book about
the Komet somewhere, but I never had a chance to read it.

That was a typical condition in the Reich. And, given how hard it was
to find self-confessed Nazis after the war, the condition persisted.
Albert Speer's "Inside the Third Reich" is a classic example.

You have to be careful about testimony of participants. You have to be
ten times more careful when they are under duress. And, being a POW
after having lost a war is a LOT of duress.

Speer wrote his book in Spandau, and he managed to keep
it secret from the jailers. He was clearly writing with an eye
on redeeming his reputation, such as it was. How it fooled
anyone is beyond me.

(Although the military historian SLA Marshall claims that the
Germans did, indeed, get the "Nuts!" message. Marshall interrogated
Manteuffel and his staff after the war. At one session Manteuffel
kept blaming his mistakes on his staff. At last one of his subordinates
leaned forward, waggled a finger in Manteuffel's face and shouted
"Nuts! Nuts!")

Another sub plot to that story that I have seen in one account was
that there was some junior officere there who was an English language
expert. He thought up the idea of the surrender demand. And wrote it
and got permission to deliver it. But, when he got the answer, he
didn't know what it meant.

That's the version which played on the British series "World At War."
An American officer said, more or less, "'I told him 'The general said
"nuts!"' The German said 'I do not understand that word in this context.'
I said 'Do you understand "Go to hell"?' The German said 'Yes, I
understand that.'")

--Bill Thompson

Henry_H@Q_ wrote:

I meant to say that although Truax didn't have the right answer for
airplanes, that work lead directly on to the whole world of hypergols
in the US, many, many vehicles and engine/motors.

Got it. He did come up with some brilliant design work, which
he must have know were inappropriate for aircraft. Most rocketeers
of the time had their eye on spaceflight and had to search hard to
justify their projects. There was considerable opposition to wasting
resources on "that Buck Rogers stuff."

Those are the same figures in Sutton's "Rocket Propulsion Elements."
I figure that Mano Zeigler gave different numbers in "Rocket Fighter"
due to conditions in Axisland--with the Allies bombing their plants
and supply lines, they may have had to settle for anything that could
flow through the lines and burn.

If I remember the book, and I am pretty sure I do, it was sort of a
"quick and dirty" account based on very limited sources. I think I
first read it myself only a couple of years after the war, so it has
been around a while. A lot of documentation showed up later that the
author didn't have then.

I checked the copyright dates in my book, and the oldest date for
"Rocket Fighter" is 1961. I vaguely recall seeing another book about
the Komet somewhere, but I never had a chance to read it.

That was a typical condition in the Reich. And, given how hard it was
to find self-confessed Nazis after the war, the condition persisted.
Albert Speer's "Inside the Third Reich" is a classic example.

You have to be careful about testimony of participants. You have to be
ten times more careful when they are under duress. And, being a POW
after having lost a war is a LOT of duress.

Speer wrote his book in Spandau, and he managed to keep
it secret from the jailers. He was clearly writing with an eye
on redeeming his reputation, such as it was. How it fooled
anyone is beyond me.

(Although the military historian SLA Marshall claims that the
Germans did, indeed, get the "Nuts!" message. Marshall interrogated
Manteuffel and his staff after the war. At one session Manteuffel
kept blaming his mistakes on his staff. At last one of his subordinates
leaned forward, waggled a finger in Manteuffel's face and shouted
"Nuts! Nuts!")

Another sub plot to that story that I have seen in one account was
that there was some junior officere there who was an English language
expert. He thought up the idea of the surrender demand. And wrote it
and got permission to deliver it. But, when he got the answer, he
didn't know what it meant.

That's the version which played on the British series "World At War."
An American officer said, more or less, "'I told him 'The general said
"nuts!"' The German said 'I do not understand that word in this context.'
I said 'Do you understand "Go to hell"?' The German said 'Yes, I
understand that.'")

--Bill Thompson

On Mon, 05 Feb 2007 03:56:02 GMT, "William R Thompson"
wrote:

Henry_H@Q wrote:

"William R Thompson" wrote:

[snip]

That's what I was taught when getting my degrees in hysteria, er, history.
My favorite example has to do with the "Nuts!" event at Bastogne.
There are several accounts of exactly what was said; the accounts
come from people who were there--and they don't match up.

Some one once told me that there was a lot of interesting discussion
here on UseNet but that no one had ever resolved ANYTHING here.

Well, You are not going to believe this, I hardly believe it myself,
but I have resolved this one, to my satisfaction at least. See below….

And you figured out what the rocket motor was. WOW!

After my first reply to this message I did some Googleing. I still
can't find any mention of the "Nuts" document.

However, I did find this on wiki:

The 1947-1949 Freedom Train was proposed by Attorney General Tom C.
Clark as a way to reawaken Americans to their taken-for-granted
principles of liberty in the post-war years. The idea soon got the
approval of President Harry S. Truman and everything else fell into
place. Top Marines were selected to attend to the train and its famous
documents. The Marine contingent was led by Col. Robert F. Scott.

Well-armed and alert, I trust. The Liberty Bell had been sent on an
earlier tour (in the Twenties, I think--details escape me) during which
tour bits and pieces were hacked off the rim as souvenirs.


Just a few days back, I wrote a message on "military" that was exactly
appropriate to that question.


The first was while I was in the Basic course [Of the Ordnance School,
APG, Maryland]. I noticed this Captain
who seemed to be around a lot. He was a scrawny little guy, but with a
VERY military "bearing."

One day, he stood up at the lectern and said "Gentlemen, I am Captain
Blank and I am your artillery instructor. By way of introduction, I
would like to tall you that I have had three notable experiences in my
army career.

1) I was the fire control officer for the first [and only, as it
turns out] 280 mm gun to fire an atomic projectile at the Nevada Test
Range.

2) I was the fire control officer for the first [and only, as it turns
out] 280 mm gun to fire an [inert] projectile into downtown Lawton
Oklahoma.

3) I am the only officer of that battery who is still in the U. S.
Army"

I IMMEDIATELY too that guy off my list of people that could be fooled
around with. (certainly ones that I was going to fool around with!)

************************************************


In 1948 the Marines, and the other services were full of guys in that
same category. "Bad Asses" that were very casual about killing people
and many of whom were just waiting out their time to get out, Some
were not to patient and some had bad attitudes. Some both.

There was one story at just that time about one Marine that was
assigned to gate guard duty at the Brooklyn Navy Yard while he was
waiting out his time. "Don't let anyone through this gate unless he
shows a badge" I guess they told him.

Some civilian, not paying attention drove through and didn't stop. The
Marine shot him neatly through the back of the head. There was no
recurrence of that!

There was no one on that train that I, a ten year old at the time, was
going to mess with.




I am very skeptical of authority in reference sources, I certainly
don't think the EB is very authoritative. "Trust everyone, but cut the
cards, anyway."

The history department's attitude was "multiple references, please,
and even then we may laugh."

I have often thought that when I find something that I think is really
important, I don't want another thousand sources that tell me the same
thing. They may well be copying each other. Or they may all be copying
the same source. So they are not truly independent.

First thing I want to see is someone who disagrees. Then you have to
pick between the arguments and see which one you believe.

"How many non black non crow things do you have to find to prove that
'all crows are black'?"

Quite a few. But you only have to find one white crow to prove it
false.


But, as a friend use to say "Even a blind pig finds some nuts."

There are a LOT of nuts on wiki.

Both metric and SAE.

You betc'um Red Ryder!

There are also some premium grade Macadamias and Blue Diamond Smoked
Almonds there too.

I went back and had the following exchange there.


************************************************** *************

OK, I have seen all this discussion about what was said, many times.
What I want to know is what was written down and the evidence for it.
In 1947 and 1948 there was the "Freedom Train" tour. My recollection
is that among other things, the train contained the document. But, I
can find no mention of that, or the document. Everything else is in
wiki, why not this?

Henry H.

Henry H. 17:43, 4 February 2007 (UTC) 11/13/05

Reply to Henry H.:

The document that was in the Freedon Train was a copy of General
McAuliffe's message to the troops on Christmas 1944. It included the
text of both the German surrender demand and the succinct reply of
General Mcauliffe. It was composed by Lt. Col. Kinnard on Christmas
Eve while General McAuliffe was attending a Catholic Mass being held
in Savy, where one on his artillery units was based. When he returned
to the HQ, General McAuliffe agreed with what Col. Kinnard had written
and it was run off and distributed to the troops. It is mentioned in
the series "Band of Brothers", episode 6. A copy of that message is
occasionally sold on eBay. I think a Google search on 'McAuliffe
"Christmas message"'will find copies of it on the Internet.


[I did look and I did find it, just like that!]

Ken McAuliffe

General McAuliffe's nephew --Bastogne 15:39, 5 February 2007 (UTC)



I think that is as good an answer on that as one is ever going to get.
When you don't like what EB you don't get that kind of help, at least
I never have.

What I was looking at was not "the original" (I always wondered how
the heck they managed to get it back from the Germans!)

It was a replica, but it was a "contemporaneous replica" made by the
same guy that made the original.

I am going to have to go back and thank Ken McAuliffe for the
wonderful reply. I almost feel the same as if General McAuliffe had
contacted me directly. And, he was as close to a military hero as I
have in my pantheon.

I stand in awe.

One of the many stories I read about the BOB was that a bunch of
American troops were milling around. Waiting for the German advance. A
single paratrooper showed up and started making preperations. He
pointed at the road. "You people got on THAT side of the road. I am
the 82 (not 101 in this case) and I am stopping them, RIGHT HERE."

That was exactly the attitude that the 101st. and McAuliffe had.

(There was no reserve in the ETO except for the 82 and 101 who where
recuperating from Market Garden. At first the idea was to send the 82
to Bastogne but once they got that straight, there was no real
direction to getting the 101 there. They just went. Stole trucks or
whatever, and went. They had no idea where it was they were going to,
just that they were going. At one time I figured that was a uniquely
American thing. But I later read descriptions of the German response
to Anzio that were very similar. )

Henry H.

On Mon, 05 Feb 2007 03:56:02 GMT, "William R Thompson"
wrote:

Henry_H@Q wrote:

"William R Thompson" wrote:

[snip]

That's what I was taught when getting my degrees in hysteria, er, history.
My favorite example has to do with the "Nuts!" event at Bastogne.
There are several accounts of exactly what was said; the accounts
come from people who were there--and they don't match up.

Some one once told me that there was a lot of interesting discussion
here on UseNet but that no one had ever resolved ANYTHING here.

Well, You are not going to believe this, I hardly believe it myself,
but I have resolved this one, to my satisfaction at least. See below….

And you figured out what the rocket motor was. WOW!

After my first reply to this message I did some Googleing. I still
can't find any mention of the "Nuts" document.

However, I did find this on wiki:

The 1947-1949 Freedom Train was proposed by Attorney General Tom C.
Clark as a way to reawaken Americans to their taken-for-granted
principles of liberty in the post-war years. The idea soon got the
approval of President Harry S. Truman and everything else fell into
place. Top Marines were selected to attend to the train and its famous
documents. The Marine contingent was led by Col. Robert F. Scott.

Well-armed and alert, I trust. The Liberty Bell had been sent on an
earlier tour (in the Twenties, I think--details escape me) during which
tour bits and pieces were hacked off the rim as souvenirs.


Just a few days back, I wrote a message on "military" that was exactly
appropriate to that question.


The first was while I was in the Basic course [Of the Ordnance School,
APG, Maryland]. I noticed this Captain
who seemed to be around a lot. He was a scrawny little guy, but with a
VERY military "bearing."

One day, he stood up at the lectern and said "Gentlemen, I am Captain
Blank and I am your artillery instructor. By way of introduction, I
would like to tall you that I have had three notable experiences in my
army career.

1) I was the fire control officer for the first [and only, as it
turns out] 280 mm gun to fire an atomic projectile at the Nevada Test
Range.

2) I was the fire control officer for the first [and only, as it turns
out] 280 mm gun to fire an [inert] projectile into downtown Lawton
Oklahoma.

3) I am the only officer of that battery who is still in the U. S.
Army"

I IMMEDIATELY too that guy off my list of people that could be fooled
around with. (certainly ones that I was going to fool around with!)

************************************************


In 1948 the Marines, and the other services were full of guys in that
same category. "Bad Asses" that were very casual about killing people
and many of whom were just waiting out their time to get out, Some
were not to patient and some had bad attitudes. Some both.

There was one story at just that time about one Marine that was
assigned to gate guard duty at the Brooklyn Navy Yard while he was
waiting out his time. "Don't let anyone through this gate unless he
shows a badge" I guess they told him.

Some civilian, not paying attention drove through and didn't stop. The
Marine shot him neatly through the back of the head. There was no
recurrence of that!

There was no one on that train that I, a ten year old at the time, was
going to mess with.




I am very skeptical of authority in reference sources, I certainly
don't think the EB is very authoritative. "Trust everyone, but cut the
cards, anyway."

The history department's attitude was "multiple references, please,
and even then we may laugh."

I have often thought that when I find something that I think is really
important, I don't want another thousand sources that tell me the same
thing. They may well be copying each other. Or they may all be copying
the same source. So they are not truly independent.

First thing I want to see is someone who disagrees. Then you have to
pick between the arguments and see which one you believe.

"How many non black non crow things do you have to find to prove that
'all crows are black'?"

Quite a few. But you only have to find one white crow to prove it
false.


But, as a friend use to say "Even a blind pig finds some nuts."

There are a LOT of nuts on wiki.

Both metric and SAE.

You betc'um Red Ryder!

There are also some premium grade Macadamias and Blue Diamond Smoked
Almonds there too.

I went back and had the following exchange there.


************************************************** *************

OK, I have seen all this discussion about what was said, many times.
What I want to know is what was written down and the evidence for it.
In 1947 and 1948 there was the "Freedom Train" tour. My recollection
is that among other things, the train contained the document. But, I
can find no mention of that, or the document. Everything else is in
wiki, why not this?

Henry H.

Henry H. 17:43, 4 February 2007 (UTC) 11/13/05

Reply to Henry H.:

The document that was in the Freedon Train was a copy of General
McAuliffe's message to the troops on Christmas 1944. It included the
text of both the German surrender demand and the succinct reply of
General Mcauliffe. It was composed by Lt. Col. Kinnard on Christmas
Eve while General McAuliffe was attending a Catholic Mass being held
in Savy, where one on his artillery units was based. When he returned
to the HQ, General McAuliffe agreed with what Col. Kinnard had written
and it was run off and distributed to the troops. It is mentioned in
the series "Band of Brothers", episode 6. A copy of that message is
occasionally sold on eBay. I think a Google search on 'McAuliffe
"Christmas message"'will find copies of it on the Internet.


[I did look and I did find it, just like that!]

Ken McAuliffe

General McAuliffe's nephew --Bastogne 15:39, 5 February 2007 (UTC)



I think that is as good an answer on that as one is ever going to get.
When you don't like what EB you don't get that kind of help, at least
I never have.

What I was looking at was not "the original" (I always wondered how
the heck they managed to get it back from the Germans!)

It was a replica, but it was a "contemporaneous replica" made by the
same guy that made the original.

I am going to have to go back and thank Ken McAuliffe for the
wonderful reply. I almost feel the same as if General McAuliffe had
contacted me directly. And, he was as close to a military hero as I
have in my pantheon.

I stand in awe.

One of the many stories I read about the BOB was that a bunch of
American troops were milling around. Waiting for the German advance. A
single paratrooper showed up and started making preperations. He
pointed at the road. "You people got on THAT side of the road. I am
the 82 (not 101 in this case) and I am stopping them, RIGHT HERE."

That was exactly the attitude that the 101st. and McAuliffe had.

(There was no reserve in the ETO except for the 82 and 101 who where
recuperating from Market Garden. At first the idea was to send the 82
to Bastogne but once they got that straight, there was no real
direction to getting the 101 there. They just went. Stole trucks or
whatever, and went. They had no idea where it was they were going to,
just that they were going. At one time I figured that was a uniquely
American thing. But I later read descriptions of the German response
to Anzio that were very similar. )

Henry H.

Henry_H@Q wrote:

And you figured out what the rocket motor was. WOW!

Dave Kearton gets credit for that one.

I have often thought that when I find something that I think is really
important, I don't want another thousand sources that tell me the same
thing. They may well be copying each other. Or they may all be copying
the same source. So they are not truly independent.

True. Do a Google search for "medical Middle Ages" and you'll find
dozens of sites which refer to Dr. Hammond's comment on medicine
during the American Civil War.

First thing I want to see is someone who disagrees. Then you have to
pick between the arguments and see which one you believe.

That's a big part of historical studies. You can improve the odds on
making the right choice if you already know the topic. The bozoes
have a habit of leaving out any facts they don't like.

The document that was in the Freedon Train was a copy of General
McAuliffe's message to the troops on Christmas 1944. It included the
text of both the German surrender demand and the succinct reply of
General Mcauliffe. It was composed by Lt. Col. Kinnard on Christmas
Eve while General McAuliffe was attending a Catholic Mass being held
in Savy, where one on his artillery units was based. When he returned
to the HQ, General McAuliffe agreed with what Col. Kinnard had written
and it was run off and distributed to the troops. It is mentioned in
the series "Band of Brothers", episode 6. A copy of that message is
occasionally sold on eBay. I think a Google search on 'McAuliffe
"Christmas message"'will find copies of it on the Internet.

[I did look and I did find it, just like that!]

Pre-internet, looking for a transcript of the message would have
involved a visit to a good research library, checking the card catalog
for references to McAuliffe and the Ardennes Offensive . . . find the
books, check their indexes and lists of illustrations . . . strike out
there, so go to the periodicals index and hope to find something in
a journal or mass-circulation magazine . . . find out that another library
had what you needed . . . order it on an inter-library loan . . .

Google takes all the fun out of it.

I think that is as good an answer on that as one is ever going to get.
When you don't like what EB you don't get that kind of help, at least
I never have.

All sources have that limitation. I grew up in Orange County, California;
I went to a parochial high school in Anaheim--and until a few years I
had no idea that the area had been a hotbed of KKK activity in the
mid-Twenties. Given that some prominent members of Orange County
society had belonged to the Klan, it's easy to imagine why nobody
said much about Klanaheim.

What I was looking at was not "the original" (I always wondered how
the heck they managed to get it back from the Germans!)

Well, the Germans did make the mistake of losing that war . . .

--Bill Thompson

Henry_H@Q wrote:

And you figured out what the rocket motor was. WOW!

Dave Kearton gets credit for that one.

I have often thought that when I find something that I think is really
important, I don't want another thousand sources that tell me the same
thing. They may well be copying each other. Or they may all be copying
the same source. So they are not truly independent.

True. Do a Google search for "medical Middle Ages" and you'll find
dozens of sites which refer to Dr. Hammond's comment on medicine
during the American Civil War.

First thing I want to see is someone who disagrees. Then you have to
pick between the arguments and see which one you believe.

That's a big part of historical studies. You can improve the odds on
making the right choice if you already know the topic. The bozoes
have a habit of leaving out any facts they don't like.

The document that was in the Freedon Train was a copy of General
McAuliffe's message to the troops on Christmas 1944. It included the
text of both the German surrender demand and the succinct reply of
General Mcauliffe. It was composed by Lt. Col. Kinnard on Christmas
Eve while General McAuliffe was attending a Catholic Mass being held
in Savy, where one on his artillery units was based. When he returned
to the HQ, General McAuliffe agreed with what Col. Kinnard had written
and it was run off and distributed to the troops. It is mentioned in
the series "Band of Brothers", episode 6. A copy of that message is
occasionally sold on eBay. I think a Google search on 'McAuliffe
"Christmas message"'will find copies of it on the Internet.

[I did look and I did find it, just like that!]

Pre-internet, looking for a transcript of the message would have
involved a visit to a good research library, checking the card catalog
for references to McAuliffe and the Ardennes Offensive . . . find the
books, check their indexes and lists of illustrations . . . strike out
there, so go to the periodicals index and hope to find something in
a journal or mass-circulation magazine . . . find out that another library
had what you needed . . . order it on an inter-library loan . . .

Google takes all the fun out of it.

I think that is as good an answer on that as one is ever going to get.
When you don't like what EB you don't get that kind of help, at least
I never have.

All sources have that limitation. I grew up in Orange County, California;
I went to a parochial high school in Anaheim--and until a few years I
had no idea that the area had been a hotbed of KKK activity in the
mid-Twenties. Given that some prominent members of Orange County
society had belonged to the Klan, it's easy to imagine why nobody
said much about Klanaheim.

What I was looking at was not "the original" (I always wondered how
the heck they managed to get it back from the Germans!)

Well, the Germans did make the mistake of losing that war . . .

--Bill Thompson

On Mon, 05 Feb 2007 04:33:21 GMT, "William R Thompson"
wrote:

I tried emailing you, and got the following:

550 ... User unknown

I don't know what the protocol for this is, anymore.

If you email me, I would be very surprised it it goes anywhere,
especially to me.

Lets see, I could go and sit on this park bench and leave you my email
address in a 7-up can.

Henry H.

On Mon, 05 Feb 2007 04:33:21 GMT, "William R Thompson"
wrote:

I tried emailing you, and got the following:

550 ... User unknown

I don't know what the protocol for this is, anymore.

If you email me, I would be very surprised it it goes anywhere,
especially to me.

Lets see, I could go and sit on this park bench and leave you my email
address in a 7-up can.

Henry H.

Henry_H@Q wrote:

I tried emailing you, and got the following:

550 ... User unknown

I don't know what the protocol for this is, anymore.

550 is a new one on me, and I'm quite experienced at
getting error messages. Ask any computer I've touched.

I just tried to e-mail you and I got a "501" error message.

--Bill Thompson