The NW overflight, what REALLY happened

Subject: NWA overflight



Date: November 24, 2009 4:46:07 PM CST

Subject: Info on NW Flt 188

This was passed along to me and thought you all might find it very
interesting reading considering the press stopped following this story
once these guys lost their licenses. I have flown with Tim a number of
time and can also say he is a great guy. One of my favorite guys to
fly with.


Now for the rest of the story.....

Hi All,

I had a one hour conversation with Tim Cheney yesterday and would like
to shed some light on what happened to cause the over flight of their
destination, MSP.

Before I begin with details, I wanted to say right up front that
although there are many events that helped to cause this, Tim takes
full responsibility and places no blame on anyone but himself. He is
very humbled by what has happened and fully understands that as
captain, he was responsible for the a/c, crew and passengers. That
said, he wanted me to know how it all happened.

Secondly, he has the full support of his neighbors in Gig Harbor, WA,
as well has his church parishioners. One of his neighbors wrote a
letter to the Star & Tribune in Minneapolis saying how great a family
the Cheney's were, I agree.

On their flight from San Diego to Minneapolis, after passing Denver,
the f/a called the cockpit to let them know Tim's crew meal was ready.
Tim was the "flying pilot" on this leg, so he told his F/O that when
the f/a brings the meal up, he will step back to use the restroom.
When Tim returned, the F/A left the cockpit and he began to eat his
crew meal.

When a pilot leaves to use the restroom, it is customary for the other
pilot to brief him on his return on "any changes", such as altitude,
heading, course changes or atc center frequency changes, etc. In this
instance, nothing was said....even though the f/o had received a
frequency change. The problem that occurred was that the f/o never got
a response on the new frequency....it was not the correct
frequency....it was a Winnipeg Canada Center Freq.

Now, Denver Center is trying to get ahold of them because they never
checked in, because the f/o had dialed in the wrong freq......that is
who called them so many times....but, then there was a shift change at
Denver Center and no one briefed the new controller that there was a
NORDO A/C (non communications) in their airspace....so, in actuality,
atc basically "lost" this a/c.....see Wall Street Journal article
below.

Tim told me he heard atc chatter on the speaker and so never thought
they were out of radio range.....but, of course, they were hearing
pilots talk on Winnipeg Center. For non-pilots.....when we don’t hear
anything for a long while...we ask atc if they are still
there....sometimes they are and sometimes you are out of their area
and need to find a new frequency. With this chatter going on, there
was no concern that they were not being controlled.

Then Tim told the f/o that the new bidding system was horrible and
that his November schedule was not what he hoped for. He mentioned
that his son was going into the Army in Dec. and he wanted certain
days off so he could see him off.....the f/o said he could help him,
he knew more about the new bidding system. Tim got his lap top out and
put it on his left leg and showed the f/o how he bid.. He told me he
had his lap top out for maybe 2 minutes. Then the f/o said that he
would show him how to do it on his laptop. He had his laptop out
maximum of 5 minutes.

Let's also add the 100 kt tail wind that they had to the discussion,
not helping matters.

The f/a's called the cockpit on the interphone (no they did not kick
the door, no, no one was sleeping, no, no one was fighting) and asked
when they will get there. They looked at their nav screens and were
directly over MSP. Because they had their screens set on the max, 320
kt setting, when the f/o called on the frequency, which of course was
Winnipeg Center, he saw Eau Claire and Duluth on his screen. They
asked where they were and the f/o told them over Eau Claire, which was
not even close, but MSP had disappeared from the screen even though
they were right over the city.

They were, as you all know, vectored all over the sky to determine if
they had control of the a/c and Tim kept telling the f/o to tell them
they have control they want to land at MSP, etc. They landed with
11,000 pounds of fuel (no they did not come in on fumes, but had 2
hours in an A320) and not but 15 minutes past schedule, even though
they left San Diego 35 minutes late due to an atc flow restriction.

In the jet-way awaiting them were FBI and every other authority you
can imagine.

Aftermath and tidbits:

Although these pilots filed an NASAP Report, which was designed to
have pilots tell the truth about events, so the FAA could learn from
them, they had their licenses revoked by the ATL F.A.A. even before
they came out of their meeting with NTSB and NASAP meetings.

ATL FAA is really big on this new regulation which will allow pilots
to take a short nap in flight so they will be rested for the
approach...they were insistent that they were sleeping.

MSP FAA, Vance (do not know last name) was the person who handed Tim
his revocation letter(which was leaked to the entire world by the ATL
FAA). Tim said Vance had tears in his eyes and walked away, said
nothing. It was later learned that the entire MSP FAA office did not
agree at all with revoking their pilot's licenses, but had no
jurisdiction over the matter, since ATL FAA had control because of
Delta.

The pilots have been to Wash. D.C., ATL and MSP for several meetings.
In ATL, they met with the chief pilots and Tim said they could not
have been nicer. They are working to resolve this, not to try and fire
them. But of course, they will have to get their license back for
Delta to consider allowing them to continue flying. The appeal has
been files for the FAA to reinstate their licenses or to settle on
some form of punishment, etc.

When Tim and his wife were in MSP for a meeting with the NTSB, they
happen to be staying at the same hotel as the NTSB was. The next
morning in the lobby, the NTSB official came over to Tim and said he
did not know why they even called them in for this event. There was no
safety issue. Also, MSP Center informed Delta that there never was a
problem and no aircraft were near their plane. Even though no radio
communications, they had been followed and separated.

Yes, the company tried to contact them on ACARS, but the 320 does not
have a chime...it has a 30 second light which then extinguishes.

Tim always has 121.5 tuned, but as we all know as pilots, it can get
very noisy at times and we turn it down and sometimes forget to turn
it back on. He told me this may have been the case..

So there were so many factors which helped to cause this episode.
Anyone would have likely prevented it.....properly checking in on the
new frequency would have been the first one.....

A note about laptops.....in NWA's A.O.M (I think it stands for
airman's operation manual), it does not say we can't use a laptop,
however in Delta's A.O.M., it does, we are transitioning now and we
actually have pages from both airlines. When our union showed this to
the attorney's, they could not believe the confusion put on our pilot
group. But, D.C. F.A.A. put out a new possible ruling which will
disallow all laptops......so stupid, don't they know Jet Blue has
laptops on every aircraft and soon all airliners will for the
electronic Jepp charts.

These are the facts and again, Tim said he feels very bad for the
company and the pilots and is hoping for a positive outcome on their
appeal. With 24 years at NWA, 21,000 blemish free hours, it would be a
mistake to ruin his career over this in my opinion.

Thank you,


F.A.A. Fails to brief new controller on duty (WSJ Article)

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125677288976914581.html

Thank you Peppo. I must confess that I had rushed to judgement myself
on this case. Not for brags but context, I'm an 8KHr CFIIMEIG and
like most of us I'm embarrassed to miss a call or flub a handoff/
checking in. Like many aviators I've also had an adversarial
encounter with FAA inspectors intent on collecting scalps for
transgressors, and like many Americans I am dismayed at the fascistic-
esque/politicization (on the part of regulators throughout government)
and apathy (on the part of "terrorized" citizenry) in our nation.
Regardless, I did not buy the stories reported in the media, and had
leapt to the same conclusion as some in high FAA/political places may
have- that the Cpt and FO had both fallen asleep.

Now, I think that legal counsel has done these pilots a disservice.
When a case (or an entire transportation sector) becomes this
politically-charged, there is a political job to do in addition to
legal protection for the clients. We are an increasingly judgmental
and impressionable society, and our regulatory and judicial systems
are at the mercy of strong collective emotions, often hasty and
irrational. I'm not immune to these failings myself, although I try
to be.

Thank you very much for opening my eyes to the aspects of this sad
episode that I had not sufficiently considered. I had come to assume
(without reliable evidence) that people are lying in order to bury
controversy/panic over flight crew fatigue regulation. You have
caused be to consider that we are instead experiencing deep societal
ignorance and rashness, akin to book-burnings and inquisitions of sick
societies past: We are (as a society) becoming over-sensitized to
collectively-perceived and media-enhanced risks such as terrorism,
liability, personal accountability, and the role of government. They
don't call it the Holy Spanish Inquisition (just career-wrecking in
the "interest" of "public safety") we're not burning books (just
becoming hopelessly confused about portable devices, EFBs, etc.) and
our government isn't openly messing up citizens' lives in order to
intimidate us all (right?).

Unless I pay careful attention, and stand up with and for my fellow
Americans under the onslaught of authoritarianism, I'm a part of the
problem, and not it's solution.

Thanks for a very eye-opening post. I have some retractions to make
now, for casual, cynical remarks I've made to various people, about
hasty assumptions. I'm now ashamed to have doubted these fellow
aviators. But I do wish that their lawyers had been more sensitive to
the importance of communicating to the public in a credible way at the
outset of another high-profile national witch-hunt. You've provided
me much food for thought, Peppo.

And my compliments on this Group in general (first post here) Blue
skies, and not so much tailwind, should you ever (who me?) get behind
the airplane again.

-Rob

"FlyingStarts" wrote in message
...
Thank you Peppo. I must confess that I had rushed to judgement myself
on this case. Not for brags but context, I'm an 8KHr CFIIMEIG and
like most of us I'm embarrassed to miss a call or flub a handoff/
checking in. Like many aviators I've also had an adversarial
encounter with FAA inspectors intent on collecting scalps for
transgressors, and like many Americans I am dismayed at the fascistic-
esque/politicization (on the part of regulators throughout government)
and apathy (on the part of "terrorized" citizenry) in our nation.
Regardless, I did not buy the stories reported in the media, and had
leapt to the same conclusion as some in high FAA/political places may
have- that the Cpt and FO had both fallen asleep.

Now, I think that legal counsel has done these pilots a disservice.
When a case (or an entire transportation sector) becomes this
politically-charged, there is a political job to do in addition to
legal protection for the clients. We are an increasingly judgmental
and impressionable society, and our regulatory and judicial systems
are at the mercy of strong collective emotions, often hasty and
irrational. I'm not immune to these failings myself, although I try
to be.

Thank you very much for opening my eyes to the aspects of this sad
episode that I had not sufficiently considered. I had come to assume
(without reliable evidence) that people are lying in order to bury
controversy/panic over flight crew fatigue regulation. You have
caused be to consider that we are instead experiencing deep societal
ignorance and rashness, akin to book-burnings and inquisitions of sick
societies past: We are (as a society) becoming over-sensitized to
collectively-perceived and media-enhanced risks such as terrorism,
liability, personal accountability, and the role of government. They
don't call it the Holy Spanish Inquisition (just career-wrecking in
the "interest" of "public safety") we're not burning books (just
becoming hopelessly confused about portable devices, EFBs, etc.) and
our government isn't openly messing up citizens' lives in order to
intimidate us all (right?).

Unless I pay careful attention, and stand up with and for my fellow
Americans under the onslaught of authoritarianism, I'm a part of the
problem, and not it's solution.

Thanks for a very eye-opening post. I have some retractions to make
now, for casual, cynical remarks I've made to various people, about
hasty assumptions. I'm now ashamed to have doubted these fellow
aviators. But I do wish that their lawyers had been more sensitive to
the importance of communicating to the public in a credible way at the
outset of another high-profile national witch-hunt. You've provided
me much food for thought, Peppo.

And my compliments on this Group in general (first post here) Blue
skies, and not so much tailwind, should you ever (who me?) get behind
the airplane again.

-Rob


Excellent response, and for a welcome change, perceptive and well spoken.

Nicely done.

Welcome to a much reduced group of long time regulars who are now mostly
lurkers. I can only offer you a small warning to use caution and 'don't
feed the trolls'.

Happy landings,

A nice story, but these pilots still need to find a new line of work. If any
one of a great many possible factors had been different, those pilots and
everyone on board their aircraft would be dead. Sorry, but they don't deserve
any slack at all. It's time for a change of career--something in which
flipping to the wrong frequency or chatting over laptops for an hour won't put
lives at risk.

Jeffrey Bloss writes:

If only I could work out what you're saying.

I'm saying they got what they deserved, and are in no position to complain.

I'm just wondering if those pilots who landed on a taxiway had their licenses
revoked, too, since they also deserved to be grounded.

In article ,
Mxsmanic wrote:

A nice story, but these pilots still need to find a new line of work. If any
one of a great many possible factors had been different, those pilots and
everyone on board their aircraft would be dead. Sorry, but they don't deserve
any slack at all. It's time for a change of career--something in which
flipping to the wrong frequency or chatting over laptops for an hour won't put
lives at risk.

Please elaborate. Offhand, I can't think of any change which would have
killed people here. Resulted in an emergency landing somewhere other
than their intended destination, perhaps, but no deaths. According to
this story, the pilots were awake and aware, and would have eventually
started wondering where they were and why ATC hadn't talked to them yet.
They would have been able to quickly figure out their actual location,
and start talking to the appropriate people once they did. They would
have then been directed to an airport in that area that could handle
their plane. A worse outcome, certainly, but I don't see any risk to
life here.

--
Mike Ash
Radio Free Earth
Broadcasting from our climate-controlled studios deep inside the Moon

On Tue, 22 Dec 2009 12:05:27 +0800, Mike Ash wrote:

In article ,
Mxsmanic wrote:

A nice story, but these pilots still need to find a new line of work. If any
one of a great many possible factors had been different, those pilots and
everyone on board their aircraft would be dead. Sorry, but they don't deserve
any slack at all. It's time for a change of career--something in which
flipping to the wrong frequency or chatting over laptops for an hour won't put
lives at risk.

Please elaborate. Offhand, I can't think of any change which would have
killed people here. Resulted in an emergency landing somewhere other
than their intended destination, perhaps, but no deaths. According to
this story, the pilots were awake and aware, and would have eventually
started wondering where they were and why ATC hadn't talked to them yet.
They would have been able to quickly figure out their actual location,
and start talking to the appropriate people once they did. They would
have then been directed to an airport in that area that could handle
their plane. A worse outcome, certainly, but I don't see any risk to
life here.

Mike, you're responding to the Mx-Bloss troll,
it makes you look like an ass. Stop.
--
Mark inventor/artist/pilot/guitarist/scientist/philosopher/
scratch golfer/cat wrangler and observer of the mundane.
And much much more including wealthy beyond anything you can imagine.

On 22 Dec 2009 17:38:20 -0000, Tsu Dho Nym wrote:

Mark wrote:

On Tue, 22 Dec 2009 12:05:27 +0800, Mike Ash wrote:

In article ,
Mxsmanic wrote:

A nice story, but these pilots still need to find a new line of
work. If any one of a great many possible factors had been
different, those pilots and everyone on board their aircraft would
be dead. Sorry, but they don't deserve any slack at all. It's time
for a change of career--something in which flipping to the wrong
frequency or chatting over laptops for an hour won't put lives at
risk.

Please elaborate. Offhand, I can't think of any change which would
have killed people here. Resulted in an emergency landing somewhere
other than their intended destination, perhaps, but no deaths.
According to this story, the pilots were awake and aware, and would
have eventually started wondering where they were and why ATC hadn't
talked to them yet. They would have been able to quickly figure out
their actual location, and start talking to the appropriate people
once they did. They would have then been directed to an airport in
that area that could handle their plane. A worse outcome, certainly,
but I don't see any risk to life here.

Mike, you're responding to the Mx-Bloss troll,
it makes you look like an ass. Stop.

Nice try, forger.

Trying to get Mark into a spin?

**** off.

Nothing here for me either.
Further posts bearing my name are Jeffrey Bloss forgeries.
He's also Gieselle.
And a loser for life.
==
Mark

Jeffrey Bloss writes:

That's a cheap conclusion if you don't provide supporting evidence.

The FAA provides a wealth of evidence in the letters that revoke their
licenses.

Mike Ash writes:

Please elaborate. Offhand, I can't think of any change which would have
killed people here.

Fuel exhaustion, weather, system failures (pressurization, engines, you name
it), and so on.

If you want to fly on airplanes with pilots who are asleep at the switch,
that's your choice, but I don't.

According to this story, the pilots were awake and aware, and would
have eventually started wondering where they were and why ATC hadn't
talked to them yet.

When is "eventually"? They were awake, but completely unaware. Had the FA
not asked them when they would be landing, how much longer would it have taken
them to figure out that there was a problem? They spent more than an hour
goofing off without noticing anything.

They would have been able to quickly figure out their actual location,
and start talking to the appropriate people once they did. They would
have then been directed to an airport in that area that could handle
their plane. A worse outcome, certainly, but I don't see any risk to
life here.

Well, in a couple of years, they can get their PPLs again, and then you can
fly with them. They don't belong in an airline cockpit.