Cal Fire Over My House [1/3] - 10_15_2017 Cal Fire aircraft overhead house 6.JPG (1/2)

The fires are in Sonoma County...my house is in Marin, just south of it.
Hope this doesn't mean the fires are coming south. No smoke in the
sky...thinking they're just in a holding pattern for use later.

Took these with a little Nikon point 'n shoot

Oh, they look SO reassuring, but are they REALLY effective?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkzjrZ-jcbY
http://www.azfamily.com/story/356152...ting-wildfires

Dated, but still relevant:
---------------------------------------------------
Air tanker drops in wildfires are often just for show

A helicopter drops water on a ridge above Latigo Canyon in Malibu, where a
fast-moving brush fire threatened homes in November:
http://tinyurl.com/y7ukm4uu

Julie Cart and Bettina Boxall
Los Angeles Times Staff Writers
July 29, 2008

The deadly 2003 Cedar fire was raging through San Diego County. Rep. Duncan
Hunter, whose home in Alpine would burn to the ground, couldn't understand
why military aircraft hadn't been called in to fight the blaze. He decided
to do something about it.

Hunter phoned Ray Quintanar, regional aviation chief for the U.S. Forest
Service, and demanded that giant C-130 cargo planes be mobilized to attack
the fire with retardant.

Quintanar explained that winds were too high and visibility too poor for
aircraft to operate. Forest Service air tankers had already been grounded.
But, as both men recall the episode, Hunter would not be dissuaded. He told
Quintanar to call "Mr. Myers" and rattled off a Washington, D.C., phone
number.

"Who's he?" Quintanar asked.

"He's the one with all the stars on his chest standing next to Don
Rumsfeld," Hunter replied, describing Gen. Richard B. Myers, then chairman
of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

When Quintanar resisted, Hunter called Washington and pleaded his case
directly with Myers. Over the next two days, six C-130 Hercules transports
were dispatched to Southern California from bases in Wyoming, North Carolina
and Colorado. The planes saw action once the weather improved, but in
Quintanar's view they contributed little to controlling the fire.

Hunter says he has no regrets about his end run around the chain of command.
"California was on fire, I got 'em the planes," he said in a recent
interview. "That's my job."

To professional firefighters, though, it was a prime example of a "political
air show," the high-profile use of expensive aircraft to appease elected
officials.

Fire commanders say they are often pressured to order planes and helicopters
into action on major fires even when the aircraft won't do any good. Such
pressure has resulted in needless and costly air operations, experienced
fire managers said in interviews.

The reason for the interference, they say, is that aerial drops of water and
retardant make good television. They're a highly visible way for political
leaders to show they're doing everything possible to quell a wildfire, even
if it entails overriding the judgment of incident commanders on the ground.

Firefighters have developed their own vernacular for such spectacles. They
call them "CNN drops."

"A lot of people do a lot of things for publicity and for politics that
don't need to be done," said Jim Ziobro, fire aviation chief for the Oregon
Department of Forestry.

Increased use of aircraft is helping to drive up the cost of fighting
wildfires. The Forest Service spent $296 million on aerial firefighting last
year, compared with $171 million in 2004. Aviation costs amount to about
one-fifth of the agency's fire-suppression spending.

Nearly all of the nation's firefighting aircraft are owned and operated by
private companies under contract with the government. The meter starts
running when an incident commander calls aircraft to a fire. It continues
whether a plane is in the air dropping retardant or sitting on a remote
tarmac, waiting for visibility to improve.

It costs up to $14,000 a day to keep an air tanker on call and as much as
$4,200 per hour to put it in the air. Heavy-duty helicopters, the workhorses
of aerial firefighting, can cost $32,000 a day on standby, plus $6,300 per
hour of flight time.

"When you deal with aviation on a wildland fire, you have a big bank in the
sky that opens up and showers money," said Timothy Ingalsbee, a former
Forest Service and National Park Service firefighter who has criticized
federal firefighting and forest management practices.

Unrealistic expectations

Pressure to use aircraft has grown as wildfires have become larger and more
dangerous, and as more subdivisions have sprung up in fire-prone canyons and
woodlands. When a column of smoke appears in the distance, frightened
homeowners want dramatic action, and an air tanker pouring red retardant on
a blazing ridgeline is undeniably dramatic.

As a result, Americans have become conditioned to think officials aren't
taking a fire seriously until they unleash a ferocious aerial attack.

"If there's a fire and there's not an air tanker circling in California,
people go, 'Oh my God, we're defenseless,' when in fact we're probably not,"
said Scott Vail, a retired Forest Service incident commander.

Aircraft have an important but limited role in firefighting. In the early
stages of a fire, drops of water or retardant can hold the flames in check
until ground crews arrive. Aircraft can also douse fires on ridges or in
canyons that firefighters can't reach. An all-out aerial attack can save
money if it brings a fire under control early.

"You can make or break a fire in one day with the right amount of aviation,"
said Dennis Hulbert, the Forest Service's aviation chief for California.

But it's a firefighting axiom that "aviation doesn't put out a fire." Only
crews and engines on the ground can do that.

What's more, bulky tankers such as C-130s -- designed to carry troops,
armored vehicles and other equipment -- are not well-suited to operate in
California's steep canyons and mountains or at the low altitudes required
for effective delivery of water and retardant.

The Forest Service and other federal agencies have about 450 firefighting
planes and helicopters under contract. The planes are mainly older single-
and multi-engine crop dusters and surplus military craft retrofitted for
firefighting.

The California Department of Forestry and Fire Protection has its own air
force. The fleet includes two dozen tankers, 11 heavy-duty helicopters, 14
twin-engine command-and-control planes and a converted DC-10 jumbo jet on
lease.Cal Fire spent more than $34 million on aviation last year, including
$7 million for the exclusive use of the DC-10.

The National Interagency Fire Center in Boise, Idaho, is supposed to
allocate aircraft based purely on professional judgment. The center, known
as NIFC (pronounced nif-see), was created in 1965 to serve as the nation's
operational nerve center for wildland firefighting. The idea was to insulate
decision-making from political pressure.

In practice, though, politicians still manage to influence when and where
planes are deployed.

A resort uses its clout

When a wildfire broke out at the edge of the Sun Valley ski resort near
Ketchum, Idaho, last August, locals were dismayed to see no firefighting
aircraft overhead.

The planes were busy fighting other fires deemed higher priority by NIFC. So
Sun Valley homeowners and businesspeople began working the phones. In short
order, they had the state's most powerful politicians pressing their case.

Gov. C.L. "Butch" Otter and U.S. Sen. Michael D. Crapo, both Republicans,
called NIFC, the Federal Emergency Management Agency, even the White House.

"People wanted more aircraft. Our office did put pressure on NIFC," said
Crapo's press secretary, Lindsay Nothern. "The squeaky wheel gets the
grease."

Other elected officials did their part. State Sen. Clint Stennett, a
Democrat whose district includes Sun Valley, told federal officials that the
fire threatened property valued at $10 billion. He didn't need to remind
them that the resort's part-time residents include California Gov. Arnold
Schwarzenegger, U.S. Sen. John Kerry, high-powered business executives and
movie stars.

"There's a significant amount of political influence in this community, and
we don't hesitate to use it," Stennett said.

The lobbying blitz turned a low-priority fire into a high-priority one.

"Once the governor started making noise, well, then the aircraft started
moving in our direction," Jeanne Pincha-Tulley, the Forest Service incident
commander on the Sun Valley fire, recalled with a laugh. "When you go to the
White House like Butch was doing, it's got to have some effect. We started
getting stuff. It was the most beautiful air show you have ever seen in your
life."

At its peak, the fleet of contract aircraft at Pincha-Tulley's disposal
included 19 helicopters and several air tankers. She said she was happy to
have the resources and did not consider them excessive. But for much of the
time, the aircraft were grounded by 70-mph winds.

The fire was brought under control in about three weeks, with no loss of
life or property and at a cost estimated at $39 million. Aerial firefighting
accounted for about 24% of the total.

Hulbert, the Forest Service aviation chief and a veteran of California
wildfires, nodded in recognition when asked about political meddling. "I'll
say this: In this region, there are a lot of political and economic
pressures. But you just cannot fly in 20- to 25-mph winds and be effective,"
he said. "The poor incident commander is stuck in the middle between the
cost issue and the political pressure.. . . .

"I've had a case where I got a call -- I won't tell you who it was -- and I
was told to put a helicopter in the air. I just couldn't do it."

Calling in the military

Fire commanders say that politicians are especially keen to mobilize
military aircraft when wildfires are burning.

Dale Gardner directed federal firefighting on the 2002 Kraft Complex fire,
which charred 48,000 acres of North Dakota prairie.

Gov. John Hoeven dispatched two National Guard helicopters "that we had no
need for," Gardner recalled. There were sufficient ground forces and
civilian aircraft to handle the situation, he said.

"But it was pretty clear he wanted to see those [helicopters] working on our
fire," said Gardner, now retired. "We used them. It was obvious the politics
of the situation dictated that we better drop some water with those
helicopters."

Hoeven's office referred a request for comment to the North Dakota National
Guard. Greg Wilz, director of military support operations for the Guard
during the fire, said the helicopters were "partially effective."

"Dropping 150 gallons at a few hundred feet on a fire is literally a drop in
the bucket," he said, but he added that the helicopters were able to reach
parts of the fire that ground crews could not.

Elaine Zieroth, former supervisor of the Apache-Sitgreaves National Forest
in Arizona, said she felt similar pressure to use military planes when a big
blaze broke out in her domain in June 2004.

Earlier that year, federal officials had grounded private air tankers after
a series of accidents, and Arizona politicians arranged for two C-130s to be
stationed in the state as a stop-gap.

Rep. Rick Renzi, a Republican from Flagstaff, issued a news release touting
the deployment and his role in arranging it: "Today, Arizona stands in a
stronger, safer position to fight fires and protect our rural communities."

When the Three Forks fire erupted in the national forest, Zieroth said, the
Forest Service's regional office gave her some advice: Whatever you do, call
in the C-130s.

"The politicians had lobbied to get these military air tankers," said
Zieroth, who retired last year. "We ordered them, but we probably wouldn't
have if we hadn't been advised it would be a good political move."

The tankers were too big and flew too high to make accurate drops of
retardant in the forest's rough terrain, said Zieroth, who watched the
C-130s in action from another plane.

"A lot of the retardant just overshot the fire," she said.

For every two C-130s dispatched to a fire, a third follows to carry
equipment and support personnel. The military tankers mobilized for this
summer's California wildfires cost nearly $12,000 per hour of flight time,
records show. Much of the cost of such missions is billed to the Forest
Service.

During the 2003 Cedar fire in San Diego County, commanders had civilian
tankers available but couldn't use them because of high winds. Quintanar, a
34-year veteran of wildland fires, said that was why he resisted Rep.
Hunter's demand for military aircraft.

"The pilots couldn't see; the windshields were pitted with dirt," recalled
Quintanar, now retired from the Forest Service. "It's beyond dangerous."

But because of the severity of the fire, which ultimately killed 15 people
and destroyed nearly 5,000 structures, pressure to get more aircraft on the
scene was intense.

Once the weather eased, the C-130s dispatched by the Pentagon in response to
Hunter's lobbying unleashed 154,000 gallons of retardant. But Quintanar said
the drops added little to what civilian aircraft had already accomplished.

"It was a politician trying to play fireman and thinking the answer was air
tankers," he said.

Wildfire workhorses

The big money on fires is expended on high-performance helicopters, which
fire bosses love for their versatility. They can often fly when wind or
weather ground fixed-wing aircraft. Commanders use them to ferry personnel
and supplies as well as to drop water and retardant.

On a single day of last year's Zaca fire in Los Padres National Forest, the
use of one Sikorsky S-64 heavy-lift helicopter cost taxpayers nearly
$65,000 -- $32,760 to keep the machine on standby for 14 hours and $6,370
per hour for five hours of flight time, Forest Service records show. By the
end of that week, the bill for the helicopter had reached $368,645. Dozens
of helicopters worked the Zaca during the four months it took to put the
fire out.

To rein in aviation costs, Forest Service officials have tried to curb
unnecessary use of helicopters. Internal memos have taken aim at
"heli-mopping" -- using the aircraft to douse remnants of a fire or to
perform chores that ground crews could do more effectively.

The leasing of helicopters is only part of their cost. Whereas air tankers
fly from established bases, helicopters need bases near a fire, which have
to be created ad hoc, often in backcountry lacking roads, utilities and
water.

Forest Service contracting officers lease land from property owners. Heavy
equipment sometimes has to be brought in to carve roads and clear terrain.
Water trucks are hired to keep dust down.

Pilots, mechanics, fueling crews and other support personnel must be
transported to the scene and provided with food, water, supplies and a place
to sleep. A team of emergency medical personnel is required at all times.

During the Zaca fire, the government paid Tower Tech Inc. of Meadow Vista,
Calif., $4,700 a day for a portable air traffic control tower and two air
traffic specialists.

ICL Performance Products in Ontario operated a mobile retardant mixing
station for a base fee of $3,345 per day, plus $1,000 to $4,000 in daily
operating charges. The retardant itself cost an additional $2,095 a ton;
water to mix it was delivered by a $1,761-a-day truck.

Such outlays can continue for months on a wildland fire.

One of the busiest companies in aerial firefighting is Aero Union Corp. of
Chico. It flies eight fixed-wing P-3 Orion tankers under contract with the
Forest Service. The company also produces the pressurized tank system that
C-130s use to drop retardant.

Aero Union has been awarded federal fire-suppression contracts totaling at
least $169 million since 2000, government records show.

Columbia Helicopters of Aurora, Ore., secured nearly $90 million in fire
contracts with the Forest Service over the same period, the records show.
The company's heavy-lift helicopters also remove timber from national
forests.

Some aviation companies are politically active. Executives and employees of
Columbia, for instance, contributed more than $400,000 to federal candidates
and election committees in the last 10 years, according to campaign finance
records. In its home state, the company made $868,000 in political donations
over the same period.

Columbia President Michael A. Fahey said in an e-mail that the contributions
"have never been made to create influence. . . . We believe our unrivaled
capabilities and exceptional efforts on the fire lines speak entirely for
themselves."

Aviation contractors, including many smaller companies, look after their
interests in Washington through Helicopter Assn. International. The trade
group has reported spending $856,000 lobbying Congress over the last 10
years on a variety of issues, including funding for wildland firefighting.

Skirting the rules

Under firefighting protocols, military aircraft are to be sent to a fire
only if no civilian planes are available and only if federal or state
officials ask for help. In reality, elected leaders frequently finesse these
rules.

Among the most forceful advocates for using military aircraft is Hunter, a
former Army Ranger and the ranking Republican on the House Armed Services
Committee.

When wildfires swept Southern California last October, Hunter again got on
the phone asking for C-130s. This time, he reached Lt. Gen. Steven Blum,
head of the National Guard Bureau, in Washington. Blum was willing to send
the planes, but there was a hitch. Neither the state of California nor the
Forest Service had requested military assistance.

"I said, 'Can you launch the planes?' " Hunter recalled. "He [Blum] thought
about it for a minute and said, 'We'll send 'em out, and we'll call it a
training mission.' We got the planes."

Nine C-130s were dispatched from bases around the country -- six to fight
the fires and three to carry equipment and 150 support personnel, all of
whom were put up in hotels at public expense.

In all, the deployment cost taxpayers $5.5 million.

Putting military planes or helicopters in the crowded skies above a fire
requires careful coordination between Forest Service and military personnel.
Military aircraft use different radio and navigational systems than civilian
planes, and their crews use different terminology to communicate in the air.

To promote safety and efficiency, state officials normally insist that a
civilian air manager, sometimes called a spotter, accompany each military
helicopter flying on a California fire.

The requirement led to delays in getting military helicopters aloft during
last fall's wildfires; at one point, there weren't enough spotters to go
around.

After heated discussions with elected officials, Cal Fire agreed to assign
one spotter for every three military helicopters.

Hunter, who makes no secret of his impatience with the Forest Service
bureaucracy, has pushed legislation to speed the process for mobilizing
military planes during wildfires. He suggested that fire managers are slow
to request military aircraft because they want to give business to private
contractors.

Incident commanders say they're reluctant for different reasons: The big
military tankers cost a lot and often aren't effective.

L. Dean Clark was fire management officer at the Chiricahua National
Monument in southeast Arizona when the 1994 Rattlesnake fire broke out in
the Chiricahua Mountains.

Clark recalled standing with a group of ranchers as they watched C-130s
release clouds of retardant high above steep canyons and rugged pine
forests.

"It was a pointless exercise in humidity-raising," said Clark, now retired.
"They couldn't get in close enough to do much good. The feds needed to be
showing the citizens they were doing everything they could to put out the
fire. . . . It was a laughable example of a waste of federal money."

Long before it reached the ground, the retardant had dissipated into a mist.

http://www.latimes.com/local/la-me-w...l29-story.html

In article , Byker says...

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

The fires are in Sonoma County...my house is in Marin, just south of it.
Hope this doesn't mean the fires are coming south. No smoke in the
sky...thinking they're just in a holding pattern for use later.

Took these with a little Nikon point 'n shoot

Oh, they look SO reassuring, but are they REALLY effective?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkzjrZ-jcbY
http://www.azfamily.com/story/356152...ting-wildfires

Dated, but still relevant:
---------------------------------------------------
Air tanker drops in wildfires are often just for show

A helicopter drops water on a ridge above Latigo Canyon in Malibu, where a
fast-moving brush fire threatened homes in November:
http://tinyurl.com/y7ukm4uu

Julie Cart and Bettina Boxall
Los Angeles Times Staff Writers
July 29, 2008

Long before it reached the ground, the retardant had dissipated into a mist.

http://www.latimes.com/local/la-me-w...l29-story.html


After I posted the pics the local news stated there was a hillside fire in my
home town...even though I didn't see any heavy smoke in the skies. Anyway, it
now makes sense.

A local news station reports that 99% of the fires in this area were started by
humans. The driving force with these fires are the 20 - 40 mph winds...mix that
with the usual careless indigent people living out in the open in tents etc, it
happens.




*

"Miloch" wrote in message news

After I posted the pics the local news stated there was a hillside fire in
my home town...even though I didn't see any heavy smoke in the skies.
Anyway, it now makes sense.

A local news station reports that 99% of the fires in this area were
started by humans. The driving force with these fires are the 20 - 40 mph
winds...mix that with the usual careless indigent people living out in the
open in tents etc, it happens.

This pic was taken today at Cuyamaca State Park, Ca., where we used to go
camping when I was little.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Small brush fire near East County campground contained

OCTOBER 15, 2017

DESCANSO – A small brush fire near a campground in the San Diego County
mountains was nearly contained Sunday.

The blaze, first reported about 1:30 p.m. Saturday in Cuyamaca Rancho State
Park, was eight acres and 75 percent contained as of about 9 a.m. Sunday,
according to Cal Fire Capt. Kendal Bortisser. The fire was located near the
Green Valley Area Campground, off state Route 79 about 45 miles east of San
Diego.

Five engines were involved in battling the fire Sunday — down
“significantly� from Saturday, Bortisser said.

Firefighters stayed at the scene all Saturday night and were expected to
remain most of Sunday to finish off the blaze, Bortisser said.

http://fox5sandiego.com/2017/10/15/s...und-contained/




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