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US Air Force survival gun?



 
 
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  #21  
Old April 22nd 04, 02:25 AM
Les Matheson
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Nope, aircrews use the M9 Beretta. Some SOF aircrews carry the short
version of the M-16.

--
Les
F-4C(WW),D,E,G(WW)/AC-130A/MC-130E EWO (ret)


"Harry Andreas" wrote in message
...
In article Dqxhc.33883$fq4.8309@lakeread05, "Bruce W.1"
wrote:


AFAIK, aircrews use the M11 which is a Sig compact.

--
Harry Andreas
Engineering raconteur



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  #22  
Old April 22nd 04, 03:08 AM
Mary Shafer
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On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 19:38:41 -0400, Bob McKellar
wrote:


I took a Navy correspondence course on "Arctic Operations". The advice for shooting
a polar bear was to aim for the shoulder, since their skulls are too thick to be
easily penetrated.


BOAC and the successor portion of BA used to carry a long gun* in the
survival pack, until about ten years ago. This was for shooting polar
bears after ditching in the Far North. Flight attendants were taught
never to let anyone eat the liver, as it has so much vitamin A it's
toxic to humans.

*I can't remember if it was a rifle or a carbine.

It sorta reminded me of some of our regular posters around here.


"Some"? Only "some"? Surely you jest.

On another note, I'm getting tired of the vitriolic political
disputatiousness on Usenet already and it's a long time to November.
Particularly the nasty attack stuff. It's unoriginal, it's tedious,
and it's irritating. It also says more about the attacker than the
attacked. Whatever happened to the concept of reasonable people
avoiding unreasonable topics in inappropriate places? Has anyone ever
changed their mind because of such an attack (well, except about the
manners and morals of the attacker)?

Mary

--
Mary Shafer Retired aerospace research engineer

  #23  
Old April 22nd 04, 03:19 AM
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"DavidG35" wrote:

The AF stopped packing AR-7s in their kits many moons ago (I packed them)
the question should be for where you are back packing what are the
threats/needs for a weapon? if you want it just for "in case" just get an
inexpensive .38 to strap on your hip and get some incendiaries rounds for
it. If theres an actual possible threat as far as animals then go with the
appropriate shotgun since you would not be shooting too far and it
eliminates the problem nicely, even if you miss!
Thats my 2 cents,
GMAN

Did you boys hear about the grizzly that someone shot in,
Alaska(?) I think?...bugger weighed around 1800 pounds. Supposed
to be the biggest Grizzly in the world. Had eaten two guys before
someone shot it with a 7(?)MM rifle. I have horrible pix
--

-Gord.
  #25  
Old April 22nd 04, 04:36 AM
Kevin Brooks
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"Stephen Harding" wrote in message
...
Kevin Brooks wrote:

The ol' Black Bear actually accounts for many more attacks against

humans in
the US than does the Grizzly, which makes sense being as they are more
widely distributed and have a larger population. I carried a 12 guage

pump

Are you certain of that? I've read quite consistently that
the black bear is really very slow to attack a human, even
when it has cubs. Attacks are extremely rare.


Huh? *Fatalities* due to black bear attacks are somewhat rare, but the
attacks sure are not. Note:

"In late May, a black bear preyed upon hiker Glenda Ann Bradley about 10
miles outside Gatlinburg, Tenn. It was the first recorded black bear
fatality in the history of the Great Smoky Mountains National Park. Then,
early in July, Canadian biathlete Mary Beth Miller was killed by a black
bear outside Quebec City. After that, human-bear conflicts made news all
summer: Black bears clawed or bit four Boy Scouts in July at the Philmont
Scout
Ranch in northeastern New Mexico..."Conflict is increasing all over," said
Gary Shelton, who has studied
bears for 35 years and written two books considered to be the seminal works
on bear aggression. "What's happening is bear attacks are taking place where
they haven't before, there's a higher level of fatalities, and there are
more deadly attacks by black bears...." Shelton, meanwhile, is preparing a
paper for the International Bear
Association conference next May that details his theory: Black bears, in
certain circumstances, will indeed prey on humans. "There's going to be a
slow, steady increase of predatory black bear attacks that will catch bear
managers off guard," he said." ( www.bears.org/pipermail/bearfolks/
2000-October/000447.html )

I can see where you might have the idea that the black bear is a rather
docile and non-threatening species; I thought pretty much the same when my
dad passed on the bit about more black bear attacks than Grizzly attacks,
something he had seen on a TV documentary. A Google will disabuse you of
that belief--there have been black bear attack fatalities here in the US (I
ran across mention of a documented case in Colorado, where the bear took a
timberman out of his cabin, killed him, and fed on him, and another in New
Mexico, where an elderly woman was similarly attacked and killed in her
cabin, so there are two documented fatalities right there to add to the
above mentioned Gatlinburg case, and the Quebec incident you mention below).
Checking into this, I also found that there appears to be a growing body of
experts who say that the previously taught action for handling a Grizzly
attack (curl into a ball and play dead) may be bad-wrong; the
punch-in-the-nose might be a better defense. Similarly, I noted that one
fellow indicated that properly used pepper spray is effective about 75% of
the time--leaving you wondering what the hell you do if you are in that
unlucky 25% where it does not work.


I think the last I heard, a couple years ago a woman jogging
around somewhere in Quebec was killed by a black bear. It
was an exceptional event!


Not exceptional as far as being an attack, nor is it truly exceptional as
being a fatality due to black bear attack. From perusing the chatter from
apparently knowledgable folks regarding this matter, it appears that in
British Columbia black bear attacks and fatalities have actually outnumbered
Grizzly incidents.


I guess I should find out more. We've got *plenty* of black
bears around here, and they're definitely done with their
winter naps.

Had my first encounter with one for this year just a few days
ago. It growled at my dog, made a short charge towards the
dog, and then took off. This would be my 5th encounter with
local black bears in about 3 years, and usually, they just
skeedadle as fast as possible when they see me. The critters
are *everywhere* around here now days!


There have been a lot of documented attacks against domestic animals. The
bears have apparently begun increasing their population in our area (between
D.C. and Richmond), but I have yet to see one around here myself. My parents
live up in the Shenandoah Valley, and I have encountered both sign and the
actual critters themselves up that way; walking up the trail beside a creek
I was going to fish, I once kicked one out of the brush and watched him
scurry away--it was so comical I had to laugh outloud. He was running as
hard as he could while repeatedly looking back at me with this obviously
terrified look about him, trying to see if I was going to chase him. Danged
thing took off up the side of the ridge (a pretty steep one) and I swear he
was accelerating the whole time. Made me realize if I ever did encounter one
who was testy that outrunning him is *not* an option.

Brooks



SMH



  #26  
Old April 22nd 04, 04:48 AM
Kevin Brooks
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"Gord Beaman" wrote in message
...
"DavidG35" wrote:

The AF stopped packing AR-7s in their kits many moons ago (I packed them)
the question should be for where you are back packing what are the
threats/needs for a weapon? if you want it just for "in case" just get an
inexpensive .38 to strap on your hip and get some incendiaries rounds for
it. If theres an actual possible threat as far as animals then go with

the
appropriate shotgun since you would not be shooting too far and it
eliminates the problem nicely, even if you miss!
Thats my 2 cents,
GMAN

Did you boys hear about the grizzly that someone shot in,
Alaska(?) I think?...bugger weighed around 1800 pounds. Supposed
to be the biggest Grizzly in the world. Had eaten two guys before
someone shot it with a 7(?)MM rifle. I have horrible pix


If it was a 7mm, it was probably a 7mm Remington Magnum round. And those
fellers do get big, don't they? When I went to Alaska, my first stop was to
visit a buddy stationed at Wainright flying UH-1V medevac helos. We talked
before I flew up there and I told him I was also going to be heading down to
the southern area to do some solo fishing. He vetoed my plan to bring my .45
along as my bear-persuader; I'll never forget his words: "Look, you need to
bring a *real* gun; I have seen grizzlies out here so big that I won't even
fly my Huey down near them..." So I took the 12 ga--and saw zero bears.
(But, to give you the Paul Harvey "rest of the story", the following year a
lady was killed hiking along a creek I had fished just outside Anchorage, so
taking a gun was not an unwise decision).

Brooks

--

-Gord.



  #28  
Old April 22nd 04, 05:00 AM
Steve Hix
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In article ,
Mary Shafer wrote:

On another note, I'm getting tired of the vitriolic political
disputatiousness on Usenet already and it's a long time to November.
Particularly the nasty attack stuff. It's unoriginal, it's tedious,
and it's irritating. It also says more about the attacker than the
attacked. Whatever happened to the concept of reasonable people
avoiding unreasonable topics in inappropriate places? Has anyone ever
changed their mind because of such an attack (well, except about the
manners and morals of the attacker)?


I'm just about this close to shutting off the computer until after
November. Make do with books, gardening, and weaving.

And then my kids send a flurry of email...almost makes up for the other
stuff.
  #29  
Old April 22nd 04, 05:11 AM
Kevin Brooks
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"B2431" wrote in message
...
From: "Kevin Brooks"


But seriously, pepper spray has limited range and is OK for your own
personal protection. But if a cat threatens or grabs a kid you need to

be
able
to reach out and touch the cat.


Uhmm...I did not say that. I believe that was Harry's posting.


The problem is too many people carry sprays rated for humans. If memory

serves
California has a law that limits the strength of the spray and requires
training before purchase.


I have the full-stregth stuff, and I'd still rather have a gun. The number I
saw was a 75% effective rate against bears; better than nothing, but that
still leaves you holding an empty spray can while trying to figure out what
to do about that 25-percenter bearing (pun) down on you. I have not seen any
documented cases yet where someone armed with a gun, and who shot same-said
bear, was subsequently killed.


I personally don't carry such a thing and use common sense around bears.

Brown
bears are a bit laid back to the point of being lazy. Just look at a berry
patch one has raided. They leave quite a lot of berries and move on to

where
they are easier to reach.


The Alaskan brown can be quite nasty, from what I have heard.


One safe thing to assume about any bear: if they are in your campsite at

night
be prepared to fight. I hang my food at least 20 feet up and as far out on

a
limb as is possible. I do this in a tree 10 - 15 yards upwind. Yes, full

grown
bears can climb trees.


I used parachute cord to do that in the Great Smoky Mountain NP--and woke up
the next morning to find that field mice had shimmied up the tree, down the
cord, and into our food supply. Can't win for losin' sometimes.

Brooks


Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired



  #30  
Old April 22nd 04, 05:50 AM
Peter Stickney
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In article ,
Stephen Harding writes:
Kevin Brooks wrote:

The ol' Black Bear actually accounts for many more attacks against humans in
the US than does the Grizzly, which makes sense being as they are more
widely distributed and have a larger population. I carried a 12 guage pump


Are you certain of that? I've read quite consistently that
the black bear is really very slow to attack a human, even
when it has cubs. Attacks are extremely rare.

I think the last I heard, a couple years ago a woman jogging
around somewhere in Quebec was killed by a black bear. It
was an exceptional event!

I guess I should find out more. We've got *plenty* of black
bears around here, and they're definitely done with their
winter naps.

Had my first encounter with one for this year just a few days
ago. It growled at my dog, made a short charge towards the
dog, and then took off. This would be my 5th encounter with
local black bears in about 3 years, and usually, they just
skeedadle as fast as possible when they see me. The critters
are *everywhere* around here now days!


I haven't heard any credible stories of Black Bear attacks either.
They're pretty willing to just go about their business and amble
along. I think that the Bears (and us) face more danger from the
Charging Buick than anything else.
That being said, wo do have a lot of bear up here, these days. (IIRC,
the census figures put the bear population in New England at the
highest level since about 1600.
Hmm. given the number of bear sighting out to Durham, it could well
be that bears are attracted to Academic environments. I know Skunks
are - there's an area of UNH that's just loaded with them. And teh
City-raised kids learn pretty quickly that they all respond quite well
to "Here, Kitty!"
As it happens, I'll be meeting with some of teh Wildlife Studies folks
at UNH this weekend. I'll see what they think.


--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster
 




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