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how does one find a co-owner?



 
 
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  #1  
Old October 9th 17, 02:33 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Default how does one find a co-owner?

Hi everyone,

I'm new to the gliding community. This is my first post on RAS, though I have been reading for a few months.

I'm a power pilot transitioning to gliders. I have not yet soloed a glider, but I have enjoyed my glider flights more than any other aviation experience I have had to date. It has bitten me hard, and I'm hooked.

I am looking to buy a beginner-friendly glider in the $30k-$40k range. Something like an LS-4, LS-3, Discus, Mosquito, Mini-Nimbus, DG-300, etc. I have no intent to fly comps yet, but I want something comfortable, safe, forgiving, and as good performance as I can get within those parameters.

For financial and logistical reasons I would like to own the aircraft in partnership with another pilot, ideally with someone more experienced that I am.

I am a new member of the BRSS, where I would intend to hanger the glider, and live nearly three hours away. With my job and family obligations I will not be able to fly every weekend, thus the glider will spend a good bit of time sitting in the hangar. It seems a shame to hoard a nice airplane that another pilot could be enjoying on those weekends when I am consumed with t-ball games, cross country meets, and events like that.

I don't know anyone in my local area (Kingsport, TN) who flies gliders, and I am still meeting BRSS club members.

For those of your that have been in this type of arrangement, do you have any advice to offer me? How did you find a co-owner? Is this an arrangement that you would recommend?

Thanks-
Matt
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  #2  
Old October 9th 17, 02:50 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tim Taylor
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Default how does one find a co-owner?

Matt, welcome to the Soaring community. A partnership is a great way to own a glider.

The best way to find a partner is to start with your local club, gliderport, and instructors. Let them know through your club newsletters, bulletin boards, etc.
  #3  
Old October 9th 17, 03:45 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bob Whelan[_3_]
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Default how does one find a co-owner?

On 10/8/2017 7:50 PM, Tim Taylor wrote:
Matt, welcome to the Soaring community. A partnership is a great way to
own a glider.

The best way to find a partner is to start with your local club,
gliderport, and instructors. Let them know through your club newsletters,
bulletin boards, etc.


What Tim said: Welcome!

I second everything else he said, too.

My first 3 bouts of sailplane ownership were made possible through two
partnerships in three different states with three different sailplanes (1-26;
C-70; HP-14). The 1-26 partnership was with two other partners; the latter two
with one-other/the-same partner. All came about from the path of simply
getting to know other club members (via B.S.-ing at the field)...as
individuals first, sailplane pilots second, and potential partners third. The
first partnership, I happened to be the "engagee" who didn't even know he
might be in the ownership market at that stage of my neophyte ignorance. The
next two came about as a result of more or less mutual/parallel development of
low-time piloting skills, and - in our cases - entered into as a means of
being able to afford the "flatter-gliding 1-26" we both wanted, but which
neither of us could justify/make-economically-happen on our own just then.

All 3 involved "marriage-like" arrangements (as in, all parties were deeply
committed to making the unions work) and - from my perspective - all worked
reasonably well, in large part because everyone's expectations were thoroughly
and adequately discussed beforehand (and subsequently met). I never felt the
need for - nor had - written agreements, but obviously "YMMV" on this front.

I suspect there are nearly as many different forms of successful partnerships
as there are different flavors of people.

Have fun with every aspect of your quest! IMHO the next most fun to actually
soaring a glider is looking for one to own! Sharing with partners was genuine
fun, too.

Bob W.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
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  #4  
Old October 9th 17, 06:40 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
son_of_flubber
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Default how does one find a co-owner?

I know a number of older glider pilots in their 70's-80's, who own nice gliders, who don't fly very often, who may or may not already have partners, and who still enjoy owning their gliders and belonging to the club. Selling their glider is a rather unpleasant milestone that many prefer to postpone and they are often under no financial pressure to sell the glider. That said, paying the annual fixed costs is annoying, and looking forward, they 'want to get their affairs in order', and part of that is finding a 'new home' for their beloved glider. Part of their motivation is that they want to 'pass on' their love of soaring, and they often have no family members interested in the sport.

I'd get to know guys like this and eventually propose a partnership. I'd not be in any rush. When the time is ripe, rather than 'split all duties equally', I'd propose that as the younger partner, I'd eventually carry all of the hassle of maintenance, annual glider inspections, parachute repacking, trailer tire replacement, etc.. The senior partner would oversee and advise about 'what needs to be done'. Senior partner might be willing to oversee a retrieval crew when I land out (and vice-versa). Senior partner will probably enjoy being involved in my fun.

If you stay in the partnership for long enough, you may end up dealing with the executor of your partner's estate, or their attorney or offspring when they are forced to retire entirely from the sport, so you'll want to have a solid written contract.

One sticking point for this sort of partnership is that the senior partner will probably overestimate the market value of the glider, and if you bargain too hard on that point, he may reject the partnership before it even starts. One way to deal with this is to get all partners to acknowledge that market values are difficult to estimate, and also that the market value of gliders will probably go down in the next 10 years. So to be fair, there should be some mechanism that ascertains the true market value when the partnership is dissolved, and some way to compensate for the possibility that you've overpaid upfront. The estate will be eager to exit the partnership quickly. You may find a new partner to 'buy-in' at that point, or you may 'buy-out' the estate's share. The price that a new partner is willing to buy-in may be used to estimate the market value of the glider. You should retain the right to 'buy-out' the estate at the price that the new buyer is willing to pay.

Perhaps pilot/owners like I describe would comment on whether I've read this opportunity correctly. The only parts that I'm confident about is that glider pilots tend to overestimate the market value of their gliders, and that they have a hard time selling their gliders when the time comes. These two factors might be propping up the prices of used gliders at the moment.
  #5  
Old October 9th 17, 08:41 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Frank Whiteley
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Posts: 1,767
Default how does one find a co-owner?

On Monday, October 9, 2017 at 11:40:31 AM UTC-6, son_of_flubber wrote:
I know a number of older glider pilots in their 70's-80's, who own nice gliders, who don't fly very often, who may or may not already have partners, and who still enjoy owning their gliders and belonging to the club. Selling their glider is a rather unpleasant milestone that many prefer to postpone and they are often under no financial pressure to sell the glider. That said, paying the annual fixed costs is annoying, and looking forward, they 'want to get their affairs in order', and part of that is finding a 'new home' for their beloved glider. Part of their motivation is that they want to 'pass on' their love of soaring, and they often have no family members interested in the sport.

I'd get to know guys like this and eventually propose a partnership. I'd not be in any rush. When the time is ripe, rather than 'split all duties equally', I'd propose that as the younger partner, I'd eventually carry all of the hassle of maintenance, annual glider inspections, parachute repacking, trailer tire replacement, etc.. The senior partner would oversee and advise about 'what needs to be done'. Senior partner might be willing to oversee a retrieval crew when I land out (and vice-versa). Senior partner will probably enjoy being involved in my fun.

If you stay in the partnership for long enough, you may end up dealing with the executor of your partner's estate, or their attorney or offspring when they are forced to retire entirely from the sport, so you'll want to have a solid written contract.

One sticking point for this sort of partnership is that the senior partner will probably overestimate the market value of the glider, and if you bargain too hard on that point, he may reject the partnership before it even starts. One way to deal with this is to get all partners to acknowledge that market values are difficult to estimate, and also that the market value of gliders will probably go down in the next 10 years. So to be fair, there should be some mechanism that ascertains the true market value when the partnership is dissolved, and some way to compensate for the possibility that you've overpaid upfront. The estate will be eager to exit the partnership quickly. You may find a new partner to 'buy-in' at that point, or you may 'buy-out' the estate's share. The price that a new partner is willing to buy-in may be used to estimate the market value of the glider. You should retain the right to 'buy-out' the estate at the price that the new buyer is willing to pay.

Perhaps pilot/owners like I describe would comment on whether I've read this opportunity correctly. The only parts that I'm confident about is that glider pilots tend to overestimate the market value of their gliders, and that they have a hard time selling their gliders when the time comes. These two factors might be propping up the prices of used gliders at the moment..


In the UK, joint ownerships were called syndicates. Co-ownership vehicles in the US are Limited Liability Partnerships and Limited Liability Companies, available in most states. Corporations are not generally considered appropriate co-ownership vehicles. AOPA has several articles. At one time AOPA legal counsel recommended avoiding the LLP because there is no liability protection among owners. The LLC has liability limits and entry and exit of owners is fairly easy.

Frank Whiteley
  #6  
Old October 10th 17, 05:49 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Morgan[_2_]
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Posts: 159
Default how does one find a co-owner?

I've been in a few partnerships in aircraft over the years. They can work out very well for managing costs. Obviously starting local is the best choice since the glider is already around. Look for the trailer/hangar queens that are generally in your list of acceptable gliders.

It can't be understated that you're entering a relationship with a person. You want to know them well enough before entering the agreement so that you'll be able to work through issues.

Common things that come up are upgrades. You want a transponder, your partner doesn't want to pay for 1/2 a transponder. Have a way to work through that in advance in your partnership agreement. That way if you spend the money to upgrade the glider, you capture that on resale.

I have a pretty good partnership agreement that I've used on a couple of aircraft. I could probably scrub it and pass it along if you need a starting point. It covers things like fair market value of the glider for dissolution or sale of the glider. That way you have a definition that everyone agrees on. In my case, I've just used 90% of average listing price of similarly equipped gliders on Wings and Wheels. You can tweak that a bit, but it gives you a place to start from as long as you use reasonably comparable gliders as a basis.

A partnership agreement can also include language to allow you to carry life insurance against your partner for up to the value of their share. That way if they go west, you have a way to purchase their share from the estate..

Thankfully this has been done by a lot of people ahead of us and there are good agreements to use for starting your own partnership.

Morgan

On Monday, October 9, 2017 at 12:41:07 PM UTC-7, Frank Whiteley wrote:
On Monday, October 9, 2017 at 11:40:31 AM UTC-6, son_of_flubber wrote:
I know a number of older glider pilots in their 70's-80's, who own nice gliders, who don't fly very often, who may or may not already have partners, and who still enjoy owning their gliders and belonging to the club. Selling their glider is a rather unpleasant milestone that many prefer to postpone and they are often under no financial pressure to sell the glider. That said, paying the annual fixed costs is annoying, and looking forward, they 'want to get their affairs in order', and part of that is finding a 'new home' for their beloved glider. Part of their motivation is that they want to 'pass on' their love of soaring, and they often have no family members interested in the sport.

I'd get to know guys like this and eventually propose a partnership. I'd not be in any rush. When the time is ripe, rather than 'split all duties equally', I'd propose that as the younger partner, I'd eventually carry all of the hassle of maintenance, annual glider inspections, parachute repacking, trailer tire replacement, etc.. The senior partner would oversee and advise about 'what needs to be done'. Senior partner might be willing to oversee a retrieval crew when I land out (and vice-versa). Senior partner will probably enjoy being involved in my fun.

If you stay in the partnership for long enough, you may end up dealing with the executor of your partner's estate, or their attorney or offspring when they are forced to retire entirely from the sport, so you'll want to have a solid written contract.

One sticking point for this sort of partnership is that the senior partner will probably overestimate the market value of the glider, and if you bargain too hard on that point, he may reject the partnership before it even starts. One way to deal with this is to get all partners to acknowledge that market values are difficult to estimate, and also that the market value of gliders will probably go down in the next 10 years. So to be fair, there should be some mechanism that ascertains the true market value when the partnership is dissolved, and some way to compensate for the possibility that you've overpaid upfront. The estate will be eager to exit the partnership quickly. You may find a new partner to 'buy-in' at that point, or you may 'buy-out' the estate's share. The price that a new partner is willing to buy-in may be used to estimate the market value of the glider. You should retain the right to 'buy-out' the estate at the price that the new buyer is willing to pay.

Perhaps pilot/owners like I describe would comment on whether I've read this opportunity correctly. The only parts that I'm confident about is that glider pilots tend to overestimate the market value of their gliders, and that they have a hard time selling their gliders when the time comes. These two factors might be propping up the prices of used gliders at the moment.

  #7  
Old October 11th 17, 10:02 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Posts: 7
Default how does one find a co-owner?

Morgan,

Any guidance you could offer would be most appreciated. Those sound like very important considerations and are not things that I might have thought of upfront.

Thanks, everyone for the welcome and for the advice. I wish I knew someone local who was also interested in sailplanes. I thought my other hobby (astronomy) was niche...

Matt

On Tuesday, October 10, 2017 at 12:49:28 AM UTC-4, Morgan wrote:

I have a pretty good partnership agreement that I've used on a couple of aircraft. I could probably scrub it
and pass it along if you need a starting point. [snip]

  #8  
Old October 13th 17, 12:45 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net
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Default how does one find a co-owner?

First, BUY A SHIP! You will not regret it.

Second, and this was already said above, but bears repeating, start looking within your club. I really don't know if having a partner that is located at another club is going to work very well, if at all. Would you drive the glider, in the trailer of course (you mention "sitting in the hangar" above), back and forth depending on whose weekend it is to fly? Unless the clubs are very close by (few, if any, are that close to one another) then a partner in the same club is the only way this is going to work. My $0.02.

Finally, while an equal partnership is in my experience universal (1/2, 1/3 or 1/4, etc interest each), something other than equal could be a possibility. The devil in in the details.

Best of luck!
  #9  
Old October 13th 17, 05:03 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Marotta
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Posts: 2,813
Default how does one find a co-owner?

You don't need to be in a club to have a partner but a club is a great
place to find one.* Here at Moriarty, NM we have both a club and an
active FBO and I know of two partnerships, both are among non-club members.

When I was looking for more performance than my ASW-19, I approached a
friend with whom I'd been flying for about two years.* He flew a Grob
102, also a Standard Class ship.* Since we'd flown together, we knew
that our capabilities were similar and, by pooling our resources we were
able to buy an LS-6a.* We made a written agreement though we never had
to use it to settle a disagreement.* We simply asked/discussed any
changes or deviations we wanted.

Good luck with finding a good partner and a great ship!


On 10/12/2017 5:45 PM, OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net wrote:
First, BUY A SHIP! You will not regret it.

Second, and this was already said above, but bears repeating, start looking within your club. I really don't know if having a partner that is located at another club is going to work very well, if at all. Would you drive the glider, in the trailer of course (you mention "sitting in the hangar" above), back and forth depending on whose weekend it is to fly? Unless the clubs are very close by (few, if any, are that close to one another) then a partner in the same club is the only way this is going to work. My $0.02.

Finally, while an equal partnership is in my experience universal (1/2, 1/3 or 1/4, etc interest each), something other than equal could be a possibility. The devil in in the details.

Best of luck!


--
Dan, 5J
  #10  
Old October 16th 17, 03:52 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Morgan[_2_]
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Posts: 159
Default how does one find a co-owner?

Hi Matt,

Took me a few days to see this. Here is a link to a Google Doc that you should be able to view and copy/paste to your own location or save locally.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...it?usp=sharing

I am not a lawyer and no lawyer has reviewed this. It was based off the AOPA partnership agreement from what I remember of making it, but that was 8 years ago or so.

It was good enough for my needs. Not perfect, but good enough that some of the things that might come up were covered and also not so crazy that it will scare someone off.

Hope it helps,

Morgan



On Wednesday, October 11, 2017 at 2:02:53 PM UTC-7, wrote:
Morgan,

Any guidance you could offer would be most appreciated. Those sound like very important considerations and are not things that I might have thought of upfront.

Thanks, everyone for the welcome and for the advice. I wish I knew someone local who was also interested in sailplanes. I thought my other hobby (astronomy) was niche...

Matt

On Tuesday, October 10, 2017 at 12:49:28 AM UTC-4, Morgan wrote:

I have a pretty good partnership agreement that I've used on a couple of aircraft. I could probably scrub it
and pass it along if you need a starting point. [snip]


 




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