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Audio of Lancaster Under nightfighter attack



 
 
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  #1  
Old November 9th 03, 01:47 AM
Stolly
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Audio of Lancaster Under nightfighter attack

This has been posted before but there has been some debate as to its
authenticity.

Its authenticity is now proved beyond doubt

http://www.roger.beckwith.btinternet...epwar/lanc.jpg

Reg Pidsley (left) with Wynford Vaughan Thomas in front of Lancaster F for
Freddie of 207 Squadron prior to flying on a Berlin raid, 3rd September
1943. Reg recorded the voices of the crew during the flight. He later
commented that when the bombs were released, "it was like going up in a
lift" and the cutting head dug into the disc.

Original, disputed clip from recording

http://www.stolly.org.uk/lanc.wav

Start of entire BBC recording

http://www.stolly.org.uk/1-001.mp3

Under attack

http://www.stolly.org.uk/2-001.mp3

Home safe

http://www.stolly.org.uk/3-001.mp3

I have the whole recording from the sound archive at the IWM.


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  #2  
Old November 9th 03, 04:14 AM
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Stolly" wrote:

This has been posted before but there has been some debate as to its
authenticity.

Its authenticity is now proved beyond doubt


Well...I hate to be a stick-in-the-mud but I just cannot see how
this could be authentic. Please tell me how they managed to
filter out the sound of 4 merlin engines at full power?. This guy
is apparently talking all through the take-off run in a barely
above conversational tone of voice. This just cannot happen, not
on a Lancaster. There's so much noise on takeoff that nobody uses
intercom then. The Pilots and Flight Engineer uses hand signals
to indicate orders to vary power and to raise the gear etc.

Sorry, I think it's faked.
--

-Gord.
  #3  
Old November 9th 03, 06:42 AM
Blair Maynard
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Even if the mics could filter out the sound of the engines, going down the
runway at max power would cause some vibration (not only from the engines
but from the landing gear bumping) in the speaker's voice. I don't hear any.

I don't believe it is a real recording of an actual mission.

The fact that somebody actually did get into a Lancaster, and tried to
record what was going on, doesn't mean that what you are proffering is the
actual recording. I would bet the recording didn't work at all, they got
back home and taped it in a studio. Maybe with the actual crew or just
actors. Maybe even somebody took notes and the words are true.

Or maybe they had this tape prepared ahead of time just in case the real
taping didn't come out. And used that. I have no problem believing that this
recording was made during the war and released as an actual recording of a
real bombing mission. People were in no position to question the validity of
such a recording back then.

Reporters faking stuff has been around for a long time.

"Stolly" wrote in message
...
This has been posted before but there has been some debate as to its
authenticity.

Its authenticity is now proved beyond doubt

http://www.roger.beckwith.btinternet...epwar/lanc.jpg

Reg Pidsley (left) with Wynford Vaughan Thomas in front of Lancaster F for
Freddie of 207 Squadron prior to flying on a Berlin raid, 3rd September
1943. Reg recorded the voices of the crew during the flight. He later
commented that when the bombs were released, "it was like going up in a
lift" and the cutting head dug into the disc.

Original, disputed clip from recording

http://www.stolly.org.uk/lanc.wav

Start of entire BBC recording

http://www.stolly.org.uk/1-001.mp3

Under attack

http://www.stolly.org.uk/2-001.mp3

Home safe

http://www.stolly.org.uk/3-001.mp3

I have the whole recording from the sound archive at the IWM.




  #4  
Old November 9th 03, 11:46 AM
tscottme
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Gord Beaman wrote in message
...

Well...I hate to be a stick-in-the-mud but I just cannot see how
this could be authentic. Please tell me how they managed to
filter out the sound of 4 merlin engines at full power?. This guy
is apparently talking all through the take-off run in a barely
above conversational tone of voice. This just cannot happen, not
on a Lancaster. There's so much noise on takeoff that nobody uses
intercom then. The Pilots and Flight Engineer uses hand signals
to indicate orders to vary power and to raise the gear etc.

Sorry, I think it's faked.
--

-Gord.


Not to mention the quality of the carbon microphones that must have been
used back then. It sounds like a professional reenactment or a training
tape. Not the slightest hint of engine noise and the voices sound
clearer and cleaner than through a modern intercom system.

Sounds fake to me.

--

Scott
--------
"So far, fewer troops have been killed by hostile fire since the end of
major combat in Iraq than civilians were murdered in Washington, D.C.,
last year (239 deaths in Iraq compared to 262 murders in D.C.). How many
years has it been since we declared the end of major U.S. combat
operations against Marion Barry's regime? How long before we just give
up and pull out of that hellish quagmire known as Washington, D.C.?" Ann
Coulter
http://www.anncoulter.com/columns/2003/110503.htm


  #5  
Old November 9th 03, 11:54 AM
M. J. Powell
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In message , Blair Maynard
writes
Even if the mics could filter out the sound of the engines, going down the
runway at max power would cause some vibration (not only from the engines
but from the landing gear bumping) in the speaker's voice. I don't hear any.

I don't believe it is a real recording of an actual mission.

The fact that somebody actually did get into a Lancaster, and tried to
record what was going on, doesn't mean that what you are proffering is the
actual recording. I would bet the recording didn't work at all, they got
back home and taped it in a studio. Maybe with the actual crew or just
actors. Maybe even somebody took notes and the words are true.

Or maybe they had this tape prepared ahead of time just in case the real
taping didn't come out. And used that. I have no problem believing that this
recording was made during the war and released as an actual recording of a
real bombing mission. People were in no position to question the validity of
such a recording back then.


Tape?

Mike
--
M.J.Powell
  #6  
Old November 9th 03, 05:20 PM
Stolly
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

It was recorded on a disk not tape.

If you are convinced it is not real then you are also convinced that

A. The picture of them stood outside the aircraft is faked.

B. They faked it in less than 12 hours since it was broadcast later the
same day.

C The BBC and Imperial War Museum, to this day, are in on the conspiracy.

D. 207 Squadron Association are also in on the conspiracy since the had a
renunion in 1983 and invited the BBC reporter there as reported here
http://www.207squadron.rafinfo.org.uk/default.htm . They got together 40
years later for the express purpose of remembering the recording and
broadcasting of this recording. Are you REALLY suggesting that they got
together 40 years later to remember something that never happened ?

Seriously you are ignoring all the above in favour of not believing that the
BBC knew how to filter noise. They were a world class broadcasting service.
You would certainly imagine they had sound engineers that knew what they
were doing.

I have the whole 40 minute recording from the IWM sound archive. I payed
20 for it. Are you saying that I should report the Imperial War Museum for
commiting fraud in that they are knowingly selling faked recordings ? Or
perhaps a museum with a international reputation has been duped themselves
and that you know better based on a hunch that the engines are not loud
enough ?





"M. J. Powell" wrote in message
...
In message , Blair Maynard
writes
Even if the mics could filter out the sound of the engines, going down

the
runway at max power would cause some vibration (not only from the engines
but from the landing gear bumping) in the speaker's voice. I don't hear

any.

I don't believe it is a real recording of an actual mission.

The fact that somebody actually did get into a Lancaster, and tried to
record what was going on, doesn't mean that what you are proffering is

the
actual recording. I would bet the recording didn't work at all, they got
back home and taped it in a studio. Maybe with the actual crew or just
actors. Maybe even somebody took notes and the words are true.

Or maybe they had this tape prepared ahead of time just in case the real
taping didn't come out. And used that. I have no problem believing that

this
recording was made during the war and released as an actual recording of

a
real bombing mission. People were in no position to question the validity

of
such a recording back then.


Tape?

Mike
--
M.J.Powell



  #7  
Old November 9th 03, 05:26 PM
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"tscottme" wrote:

Gord Beaman wrote in message
.. .

Well...I hate to be a stick-in-the-mud but I just cannot see how
this could be authentic. Please tell me how they managed to
filter out the sound of 4 merlin engines at full power?. This guy
is apparently talking all through the take-off run in a barely
above conversational tone of voice. This just cannot happen, not
on a Lancaster. There's so much noise on takeoff that nobody uses
intercom then. The Pilots and Flight Engineer uses hand signals
to indicate orders to vary power and to raise the gear etc.

Sorry, I think it's faked.
--

-Gord.


Not to mention the quality of the carbon microphones that must have been
used back then. It sounds like a professional reenactment or a training
tape. Not the slightest hint of engine noise and the voices sound
clearer and cleaner than through a modern intercom system.

Sounds fake to me.


Quite true, we did use carbon mics (at least in peacetime
Lancasters - early fifties). They were type T-17, for pic see:
http://members.aol.com/tcsopr/t17mic.htm
--

-Gord.
  #8  
Old November 9th 03, 06:41 PM
Tex Houston
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Blair Maynard" wrote in message
...
I don't believe it is a real recording of an actual mission.

The fact that somebody actually did get into a Lancaster, and tried to
record what was going on, doesn't mean that what you are proffering is the
actual recording. I would bet the recording didn't work at all, they got
back home and taped it in a studio. Maybe with the actual crew or just
actors. Maybe even somebody took notes and the words are true.

Or maybe they had this tape prepared ahead of time just in case the real
taping didn't come out. And used that. I have no problem believing that

this
recording was made during the war and released as an actual recording of a
real bombing mission. People were in no position to question the validity

of
such a recording back then.



Wire recording...possibly. Tape? Do you know something we don't?

Tex


  #9  
Old November 9th 03, 07:49 PM
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Stolly" wrote:

It was recorded on a disk not tape.

If you are convinced it is not real then you are also convinced that

A. The picture of them stood outside the aircraft is faked.


Hardly now...why does it follow?..don't be silly sir...

Incidentally, although it certainly isn't any kind of proof but
our Lancs didn't have that row of small windows all down along
the stbd side of the a/c, but if you Google for the 'Manchester
Bomber' it does, exactly like these.

Are you sure that these two guys aren't standing beside a
Manchester?. There's not enough of the a/c showing for me to
tell.


B. They faked it in less than 12 hours since it was broadcast later the
same day.


And that sounds impossible for the BBC??...as I said, don't be
silly sir...


C The BBC and Imperial War Museum, to this day, are in on the conspiracy.

D. 207 Squadron Association are also in on the conspiracy since the had a
renunion in 1983 and invited the BBC reporter there as reported here
http://www.207squadron.rafinfo.org.uk/default.htm . They got together 40
years later for the express purpose of remembering the recording and
broadcasting of this recording. Are you REALLY suggesting that they got
together 40 years later to remember something that never happened ?

Seriously you are ignoring all the above in favour of not believing that the
BBC knew how to filter noise. They were a world class broadcasting service.
You would certainly imagine they had sound engineers that knew what they
were doing.

I have the whole 40 minute recording from the IWM sound archive. I payed
20 for it. Are you saying that I should report the Imperial War Museum for
commiting fraud in that they are knowingly selling faked recordings ? Or
perhaps a museum with a international reputation has been duped themselves
and that you know better based on a hunch that the engines are not loud
enough ?



I know that this looks bad for me...but I find it very difficult
to believe that the announcer is sitting in a Lanc as he talks
about "...moving down the runway and just now we lift off and
climb away..." etc. If you ever actually sat in a Lancaster
during takeoff you'd know...the noise is deafeningly
loud...deafening...

Literally.

The Canadian government pays me a 35% hearing disability pension
for listening to that deafening sound (for about 575 hours)
along with the exposure that I suffered on other less loud a/c
since.

You have to take some of the responsibility for this too Stolly,
you made the barefaced claim that it was authentic with no cite
at all. This time you supplied a cite but didn't point out any
connection to this recording in that article. I searched all
through your article and found this somewhere in there (I believe
it was in 'A brief history')

quote:
The famous BBC recording of a raid on Berlin, commentary by
Wynford Vaughan-Thomas, was made on 3rd September 1943
with Flt Lt Ken Letford's crew in EM-F for Freddie.
unquote


So there you are...do I think that it's authentic?...well, I have
no doubt that it was made during the war, and probably for PR
reasons so it certainly has value (had?)...do I think that it
used the talents of the flight crew?...sure.

Do I believe that there's some conspiricy?...nah.

Do I think that it was RECORDED IN FLIGHT on a
LANCASTER?...sorry, I just cannot believe that.

As talented as the BBC techs might have been, the 'white noise'
of four Merlins at full bellow is fearsome to behold yet there's
almost no evidence of it here (I can occasionally hear what might
be some faint engine sounds 'way in the background).

The announcer sounds relatively calm and is speaking relatively
quietly, certainly not the case if he were actually shouting to
be heard above the unholy racket of 4 Merlins. It's human nature
to shout when you cannot hear...notice hearing impaired people,
they speak loudly because they can't hear themselves very well.
--

-Gord.
  #10  
Old November 9th 03, 09:05 PM
Stolly
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

As you correctly point out the Manchester did have that row of windows.

As i am sure you also know the Lanc is a very close relative of the
Manchester and early Lancasters were uncompleted Manchesters with new wings
etc.

So many early Lancasters started life as Manchesters and did indeed have the
windows. Since this is 1943 it is entirely correct that early Lancasters
were still in service.

"Gord Beaman" wrote in message
...
"Stolly" wrote:

It was recorded on a disk not tape.

If you are convinced it is not real then you are also convinced that

A. The picture of them stood outside the aircraft is faked.


Hardly now...why does it follow?..don't be silly sir...

Incidentally, although it certainly isn't any kind of proof but
our Lancs didn't have that row of small windows all down along
the stbd side of the a/c, but if you Google for the 'Manchester
Bomber' it does, exactly like these.

Are you sure that these two guys aren't standing beside a
Manchester?. There's not enough of the a/c showing for me to
tell.


B. They faked it in less than 12 hours since it was broadcast later the
same day.


And that sounds impossible for the BBC??...as I said, don't be
silly sir...


C The BBC and Imperial War Museum, to this day, are in on the

conspiracy.

D. 207 Squadron Association are also in on the conspiracy since the had

a
renunion in 1983 and invited the BBC reporter there as reported here
http://www.207squadron.rafinfo.org.uk/default.htm . They got together 40
years later for the express purpose of remembering the recording and
broadcasting of this recording. Are you REALLY suggesting that they got
together 40 years later to remember something that never happened ?

Seriously you are ignoring all the above in favour of not believing that

the
BBC knew how to filter noise. They were a world class broadcasting

service.
You would certainly imagine they had sound engineers that knew what they
were doing.

I have the whole 40 minute recording from the IWM sound archive. I payed
20 for it. Are you saying that I should report the Imperial War Museum

for
commiting fraud in that they are knowingly selling faked recordings ? Or
perhaps a museum with a international reputation has been duped

themselves
and that you know better based on a hunch that the engines are not loud
enough ?



I know that this looks bad for me...but I find it very difficult
to believe that the announcer is sitting in a Lanc as he talks
about "...moving down the runway and just now we lift off and
climb away..." etc. If you ever actually sat in a Lancaster
during takeoff you'd know...the noise is deafeningly
loud...deafening...

Literally.

The Canadian government pays me a 35% hearing disability pension
for listening to that deafening sound (for about 575 hours)
along with the exposure that I suffered on other less loud a/c
since.

You have to take some of the responsibility for this too Stolly,
you made the barefaced claim that it was authentic with no cite
at all. This time you supplied a cite but didn't point out any
connection to this recording in that article. I searched all
through your article and found this somewhere in there (I believe
it was in 'A brief history')

quote:
The famous BBC recording of a raid on Berlin, commentary by
Wynford Vaughan-Thomas, was made on 3rd September 1943
with Flt Lt Ken Letford's crew in EM-F for Freddie.
unquote


So there you are...do I think that it's authentic?...well, I have
no doubt that it was made during the war, and probably for PR
reasons so it certainly has value (had?)...do I think that it
used the talents of the flight crew?...sure.

Do I believe that there's some conspiricy?...nah.

Do I think that it was RECORDED IN FLIGHT on a
LANCASTER?...sorry, I just cannot believe that.

As talented as the BBC techs might have been, the 'white noise'
of four Merlins at full bellow is fearsome to behold yet there's
almost no evidence of it here (I can occasionally hear what might
be some faint engine sounds 'way in the background).

The announcer sounds relatively calm and is speaking relatively
quietly, certainly not the case if he were actually shouting to
be heard above the unholy racket of 4 Merlins. It's human nature
to shout when you cannot hear...notice hearing impaired people,
they speak loudly because they can't hear themselves very well.
--

-Gord.



 




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