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"Going for the Visual"



 
 
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  #31  
Old April 11th 04, 12:56 AM
Snowbird
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Newps wrote in message news:0jTdc.112869$K91.324392@attbi_s02...

You don't accept a visual until you can actually see the aiport. You
can be vectored for a visual because you don't yet see the airport but
reasonably expect you might if you can get closer.


Scott,

I'm finding this very confusing. Can you direct me to where it says
I must actually see the airport to accept a visual approach?

We've been cleared for a visual approach many times when more
than 10 miles from a non-towered airport w/out an IAP. The
airport was definately not in sight. No vectoring was involved.

Cheers,
Sydney
  #32  
Old April 11th 04, 01:54 AM
Steven P. McNicoll
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"Snowbird" wrote in message
om...

I'm finding this very confusing. Can you direct me to where it says
I must actually see the airport to accept a visual approach?

We've been cleared for a visual approach many times when more
than 10 miles from a non-towered airport w/out an IAP. The
airport was definately not in sight. No vectoring was involved.


Had you reported a preceding aircraft in sight that had been cleared for a
visual approach?


FAA Order 7110.65P Air Traffic Control

Chapter 7. Visual

Section 4. Approaches

7-4-3. CLEARANCE FOR VISUAL APPROACH

ARTCCs and approach controls may clear aircraft for visual approaches using
the following procedures:

NOTE-
Towers may exercise this authority when authorized by a LOA with the
facility that provides the IFR service, or by a facility directive at
collocated facilities.

a. Controllers may initiate, or pilots may request, a visual approach even
when an aircraft is being vectored for an instrument approach and the pilot
subsequently reports:

1. The airport or the runway in sight at airports with operating control
towers.

2. The airport in sight at airports without a control tower.

b. Resolve potential conflicts with all other aircraft, advise an
overtaking aircraft of the distance to the preceding aircraft and speed
difference, and ensure that weather conditions at the airport are VFR or
that the pilot has been informed that weather is not available for the
destination airport. Upon pilot request, advise the pilot of the frequency
to receive weather information where AWOS/ASOS is available.

PHRASEOLOGY-
(Ident) (instructions) CLEARED VISUAL APPROACH RUNWAY (number);

or

(ident) (instructions) CLEARED VISUAL APPROACH TO (airport name)

(and if appropriate)

WEATHER NOT AVAILABLE OR VERIFY THAT YOU HAVE THE (airport) WEATHER.

REFERENCE-
FAAO 7110.65, Visual Separation, Para 7-2-1.

c. Clear an aircraft for a visual approach when:

1. The aircraft is number one in the approach sequence, or

2. The aircraft is to follow a preceding aircraft and the pilot reports
the preceding aircraft in sight and is instructed to follow it, or

NOTE-
The pilot need not report the airport/runway in sight.

3. The pilot reports the airport or runway in sight but not the
preceding aircraft. Radar separation must be maintained until visual
separation is provided.

d. All aircraft following a heavy jet/B757 must be informed of the
airplane manufacturer and model.

EXAMPLE-
"Cessna Three Four Juliet, following a Boeing 757, 12 o'clock, six miles."

e. Inform the tower of the aircraft's position prior to communications
transfer at controlled airports. ARTS/STARS functions may be used provided a
facility directive or LOA specifies control and communication transfer
points.

f. In addition to the requirements of para 7-4-2, Vectors for Visual
Approach, and subparas a, b, c, d, and e, ensure that the location of the
destination airport is provided when the pilot is asked to report the
destination airport in sight.

g. In those instances where airports are located in close proximity, also
provide the location of the airport that may cause the confusion.

EXAMPLE-
"Cessna Five Six November, Cleveland Burke Lakefront Airport is at
12 o'clock, 5 miles. Cleveland Hopkins Airport is at 1 o'clock 12 miles.
Report Cleveland Hopkins in sight."

REFERENCE-
FAAO 7110.65, Approaches to Multiple Runways, Para 7-4-4.


  #33  
Old April 11th 04, 03:47 AM
Newps
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Snowbird wrote:
Newps wrote in message news:0jTdc.112869$K91.324392@attbi_s02...


You don't accept a visual until you can actually see the aiport. You
can be vectored for a visual because you don't yet see the airport but
reasonably expect you might if you can get closer.





I'm finding this very confusing. Can you direct me to where it says
I must actually see the airport to accept a visual approach?

We've been cleared for a visual approach many times when more
than 10 miles from a non-towered airport w/out an IAP. The
airport was definately not in sight. No vectoring was involved.



You must either see the airport or the preceding aircraft. In the real
world it is only a tiny percentage of aircraft that get a visual
approach and don't have the airport in sight but are following another
aircraft. Here in Billings we give a lot of visual approach clearances
on initial contact because the pilot calls the airport in sight 40 miles
out. Are you saying that the center, for no apparent reason, is just
giving you a visual approach clearance without you first calling the
airport in sight? If that's the case just say "unable". Whether or not
an airport has an IAP is not relavant.

  #34  
Old April 11th 04, 06:05 PM
Michael
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"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote
Right. The operational altitude is really MVA, which is not available
to you.


Why would the MVA not be available to him?


Because AFAIK the MVA charts are not published anywhere pilots can get
them. I've seen some individual uncontrolled copies floating around,
but these are not really reliable because they have no expiration date
and changes are not NOTAM'd.

Michael
  #35  
Old April 11th 04, 11:13 PM
Steven P. McNicoll
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"Michael" wrote in message
m...

Because AFAIK the MVA charts are not published anywhere pilots can get
them. I've seen some individual uncontrolled copies floating around,
but these are not really reliable because they have no expiration date
and changes are not NOTAM'd.


Okay. But you said the MVA was not available, not the MVA chart.


  #36  
Old April 12th 04, 05:00 AM
Snowbird
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"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message link.net...
"Snowbird" wrote in message
om...


Had you reported a preceding aircraft in sight that had been cleared for a
visual approach?


Nope. No one else going in to that non-towered airport IFR.
Typical exchange would go something like
"XX Center, Grumman 123 requests slow descent into Podunk"
"Grumman 123, descend and maintain three thousand."
(3000 will lose radar coverage and radio contact will be
iffy)
(around 3500 ft)
"Grumman 123, radar contact lost, you are cleared for the
visual approach into Podunk, no observed traffic between
you and the airport, change to advisory approved, report
cancellation with Flight Service"

FAA Order 7110.65P Air Traffic Control
Chapter 7. Visual
2. The airport in sight at airports without a control tower.


That looks pretty unambiguous.

My guess is what I've run into is someone who knows if he
waits to clear me until I report the airport in sight, the
chances that he'll have lost both radar contact and comms
with me are pretty high, and has decided to simplify his
life.

Cheers,
Sydney





b. Resolve potential conflicts with all other aircraft, advise an
overtaking aircraft of the distance to the preceding aircraft and speed
difference, and ensure that weather conditions at the airport are VFR or
that the pilot has been informed that weather is not available for the
destination airport. Upon pilot request, advise the pilot of the frequency
to receive weather information where AWOS/ASOS is available.

PHRASEOLOGY-
(Ident) (instructions) CLEARED VISUAL APPROACH RUNWAY (number);

or

(ident) (instructions) CLEARED VISUAL APPROACH TO (airport name)

(and if appropriate)

WEATHER NOT AVAILABLE OR VERIFY THAT YOU HAVE THE (airport) WEATHER.

REFERENCE-
FAAO 7110.65, Visual Separation, Para 7-2-1.

c. Clear an aircraft for a visual approach when:

1. The aircraft is number one in the approach sequence, or

2. The aircraft is to follow a preceding aircraft and the pilot reports
the preceding aircraft in sight and is instructed to follow it, or

NOTE-
The pilot need not report the airport/runway in sight.

3. The pilot reports the airport or runway in sight but not the
preceding aircraft. Radar separation must be maintained until visual
separation is provided.

d. All aircraft following a heavy jet/B757 must be informed of the
airplane manufacturer and model.

EXAMPLE-
"Cessna Three Four Juliet, following a Boeing 757, 12 o'clock, six miles."

e. Inform the tower of the aircraft's position prior to communications
transfer at controlled airports. ARTS/STARS functions may be used provided a
facility directive or LOA specifies control and communication transfer
points.

f. In addition to the requirements of para 7-4-2, Vectors for Visual
Approach, and subparas a, b, c, d, and e, ensure that the location of the
destination airport is provided when the pilot is asked to report the
destination airport in sight.

g. In those instances where airports are located in close proximity, also
provide the location of the airport that may cause the confusion.

EXAMPLE-
"Cessna Five Six November, Cleveland Burke Lakefront Airport is at
12 o'clock, 5 miles. Cleveland Hopkins Airport is at 1 o'clock 12 miles.
Report Cleveland Hopkins in sight."

REFERENCE-
FAAO 7110.65, Approaches to Multiple Runways, Para 7-4-4.

  #37  
Old April 12th 04, 05:13 AM
Snowbird
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Newps wrote in message news:ol2ec.8025$wP1.27020@attbi_s54...
You must either see the airport or the preceding aircraft. In the real
world it is only a tiny percentage of aircraft that get a visual
approach and don't have the airport in sight but are following another
aircraft.


We're not following another aircraft.

Here in Billings we give a lot of visual approach clearances
on initial contact because the pilot calls the airport in sight 40 miles
out.


(wolf whistle) Nice.

Here in the midwest, we get a lot of summer wx where there's not a
cloud in the sky and the vis is nominally VFR -- at least you can
make out airports which are 3 miles away by GPS. But it's really
flight by reference to instruments. The forward vis is nil.
And once one starts a descent, the radius shrinks. Practically
speaking, I'm not going to see the airport until I'm practically
flying over it, yet there's no question whatsoever about my
ability to land there under VFR.

Are you saying that the center, for no apparent reason, is just
giving you a visual approach clearance without you first calling the
airport in sight?


The latter (vis approach clearance without me first calling the
airport in sight), but not the former. At the MIA, both radar
and radio reception will be tenuous -- and at an airport with no
IAP there's no requirement to assure radio reception at a given
altitude as there is with, for example, a MAHP. Operationally,
there are several apparent reasons why it's probably helpful to
go ahead and issue the clearance.

Cheers,
Sydney
  #39  
Old April 12th 04, 02:45 PM
Roy Smith
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(Michael) wrote:
That sounds realistic. On the other hand, the controller has an
option that is just as simple and not contrary to regulation. The
option is a cruise clearance. That allows you to shoot any approach,
which presumably includes the visual and preserves the option of
shooting a SIAP if you don't get the airport in sight, or the contact
if the vis isn't quite good enough for the visual.


As somebody who flies mostly in the New York area, I've never gotten a
cruise clearance in my life, so I'm not really up on the details. What
happens if I get "Cleared to the White Plains airport, via direct,
cruise 3000, frequency change approved, have a nice night"? For the
moment, let's assume it's 2:00 AM and the tower is closed.

I plug HPN into my GPS, climb to 3000, and keep turning the little
airplane icon until the track and bearing say the same number. Then
what?

I need 1000 and 3 to fly a visual. 30 miles out, I tune in the ATIS and
hear that the weather is 2500 & 10. I'm currently in IMC. When do I
begin my descent out of 3000 for the visual? I'm guessing I can't and
must shoot an instrument approach?

OK, I decided to shoot the GPS-34
(
http://www.myairplane.com/databases/.../HPN_agr34.pdf).
At what point do I stop going direct HPN and start heading to TUGME (the
IAF)? And when do I begin my descent out of 3000? I'm guessing only
once I pass TUGME, so let's assume that for the moment.

So, I start on down from TUGME, and quickly break out right at 2500 and
see the airport. Can I then change my mind about flying the GPS-34 and
switch to the visual? I'm guessing I can, so I make a right turn,
heading 000, to get lined up for a straight-in to 29 (my preferred
runway since it puts me closest to my parking spot).

Halfway to the airport, I discover I made a poor choice in breaking off
the GPS approach because suddenly I find myself in a rain shower and
quickly after that, back in IMC at 2000. I'm not worried about terrain
in the immediate vicinity because I know I'm above anything close, but I
figure a climb back to the MSA makes sense anyway, so I do that. Now
what? If I decide to climb to 3000 and head back to TUGME for another
GPS approach, am I still operating within my cruise clearance?

I guess the gist of my question is, does the cruise clearance let me fly
a single approach, or does it let me stooge around in the vicinity of
the airport trying multiple approaches until I get in or give up?
  #40  
Old April 12th 04, 04:00 PM
Stan Gosnell
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Roy Smith wrote in news:roy-
:

As somebody who flies mostly in the New York area, I've never gotten a
cruise clearance in my life, so I'm not really up on the details. What
happens if I get "Cleared to the White Plains airport, via direct,
cruise 3000, frequency change approved, have a nice night"? For the
moment, let's assume it's 2:00 AM and the tower is closed.


As somebody who flies mostly in the Gulf of Mexico, with spotty radar and
communications coverage, I get them all the time, pretty much every IFR
flight offshore. Center knows we can't talk below 2000' or so, and radar
coverage will also be lost. A cruise clearance gives you all the airspace
at and below the cruise altitude until you report out of it. If you report
leaving an altitude, you can't climb back up to it, but until you report
leaving it (if you do report it) you can go up and down all you like. The
cruise clearance includes the instrument approach of your choice, and a
missed approach clearance if you miss. We have a standard missed in a
letter of agreement, as well as lost comm instructions. The airspace
around your destination is yours until you cancel IFR or report a missed
approach.

You can descend to whatever altitude you like, down to the MEA, and to the
published altitude for any transitions you fly. A direct clearance can
make things difficult, because of terrain clearances. You can fly direct
to the airport, an IAF, or whatever, because ATC must protect all the
airspace, because the cruise clearance is a clearance for any approach.
That's why you don't get them very often up there. I'm not familiar with
the airspace, so I can't comment on the routing you postulated, but in
reality you can do whatever you like, as long as you can maintain a safe
altitude. I would likely set myself up for the most direct published
approach, and fly that, unless I broke out and had the airport in sight.
You can fly the visual at any time you have the airport in sight. A cruise
clearance is a wonderful thing, if you can get it, because it lets you do
pretty much whatever you like.

I guess the gist of my question is, does the cruise clearance let me fly
a single approach, or does it let me stooge around in the vicinity of
the airport trying multiple approaches until I get in or give up?

My understanding is that you can stooge around if you need to, but good
planning should obviate a lot of stooging. Judgement is always necessary,
especially when flying IFR.

--
Regards,

Stan

 




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