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#1
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AoA keep it going!
In my early hours of being instructed, not one went by without stall
and spin practice. They also taught me to look out of the window. Maybe I've done a thousand or more turns before I found myself in a spin that I did not intend to happen. I was in an HP11, over a ridge, with a 1-26 out climbing me. "He can't do that!" With over 60 degrees bank, I just tightened my turn by pulling back on the stick. I increased my AoA without concern. Snap! The ridge was spinning below my nose and getting larger very fast. My old instincts kicked in. I was looking at the grass when I recovered. Now, AoA is my favorite subject to teach. My God! The ignorance is rampant. A tow pilot applied for a job. I asked him what the approximate angle of attack was for the Super Cub wing when it stalled. A commercial pilot raised his arm and pointed up about 40 degrees above the horizon. He went home. I was stunned. A favorite question I use for instruction... Which wing in a turn has the greatest angle of attack? The pilot has a 50-50 chance at the correct guess. No matter what his answer, I ask why? I get no answer. A problem I find is a lack of understanding of "relative wind" Is there no hope? I have witnessed a low altitude spin to impact. It was not nice. Another spin to impact gave me the opportunity to ask the pilot the question..."What makes the glider turn? His answer:"The rudder" He was a military acadamy pilot. We absolutly must teach and demonstrate more angle of attack recognition and recovery. It doesant take long before you hear or read about a stall spin fatality, Don't let your stundent go out into the wold without being trained in ALL aspects of AoA and stall spin recovery.Maybe the instructor should learn first. God bless good instructors,Fearless Fred |
#2
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AoA keep it going!
On 16 Dec, 07:14, fred wrote:
Another spin to impact gave me the opportunity to ask the pilot the question..."What makes the glider turn? His answer:"The rudder" He was a military acadamy pilot. I myself am amazed at how many pilots think the ailerons make the glider turn. Ian |
#3
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AoA keep it going!
I recall a teaching aid used to train WWII pilots. It was a simple table
top wind tunnel made of plexiglass with a "test section" about an inch wide and 6" high. It came with various aerodynamic shaped bits of plastic that could be used to visualize flow. There was a small exhaust fan to pull air through the tunnel and a clever "smoke rake" made with a small electrically heated pot and a rake made of small diameter brass tubes soldered together. It was a simple two dimensional wind tunnel. You put an ounce or so of kerosene in the pot and turned on the heat. After a bit, smoke started coming out of the dozen or so rake tubes. You then turned on the fan and neat parallel streams of smoke flowed around the shape in the test section. The reynolds number was all wrong but the visualization of air flow was way more than good enough to get the idea of angle of attack across. The airfoil shaped test bit was nearly perfect. At about 16 degrees of AOA, the smoke streams would burble and separate from the upper surface. No one left the demonstration unconvinced. The thing was a little messy. To see the smoke streamers clearly you needed to be in a dimly lit room which quickly filled with kerosene smoke. That's probably why it isn't used much anymore. Still, I'd love to have one. Maybe a computer program could be just as good. The thought occurs to me that those WWII flight schools went to a lot of trouble to teach AOA and the graduates were among the best pilots ever trained. Maybe we should take a look at that they did to train them. Bill Daniels "fred" wrote in message ... In my early hours of being instructed, not one went by without stall and spin practice. They also taught me to look out of the window. Maybe I've done a thousand or more turns before I found myself in a spin that I did not intend to happen. I was in an HP11, over a ridge, with a 1-26 out climbing me. "He can't do that!" With over 60 degrees bank, I just tightened my turn by pulling back on the stick. I increased my AoA without concern. Snap! The ridge was spinning below my nose and getting larger very fast. My old instincts kicked in. I was looking at the grass when I recovered. Now, AoA is my favorite subject to teach. My God! The ignorance is rampant. A tow pilot applied for a job. I asked him what the approximate angle of attack was for the Super Cub wing when it stalled. A commercial pilot raised his arm and pointed up about 40 degrees above the horizon. He went home. I was stunned. A favorite question I use for instruction... Which wing in a turn has the greatest angle of attack? The pilot has a 50-50 chance at the correct guess. No matter what his answer, I ask why? I get no answer. A problem I find is a lack of understanding of "relative wind" Is there no hope? I have witnessed a low altitude spin to impact. It was not nice. Another spin to impact gave me the opportunity to ask the pilot the question..."What makes the glider turn? His answer:"The rudder" He was a military acadamy pilot. We absolutly must teach and demonstrate more angle of attack recognition and recovery. It doesant take long before you hear or read about a stall spin fatality, Don't let your stundent go out into the wold without being trained in ALL aspects of AoA and stall spin recovery.Maybe the instructor should learn first. God bless good instructors,Fearless Fred |
#4
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AoA keep it going!
On 16 Dec, 15:22, "Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote:
The thing was a little messy. To see the smoke streamers clearly you needed to be in a dimly lit room which quickly filled with kerosene smoke. That's probably why it isn't used much anymore. Still, I'd love to have one. Maybe a computer program could be just as good. Everyone should -in my opinion - fly a tufted glider while training. Ian |
#5
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AoA keep it going!
"Ian" wrote in message ... On 16 Dec, 15:22, "Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote: The thing was a little messy. To see the smoke streamers clearly you needed to be in a dimly lit room which quickly filled with kerosene smoke. That's probably why it isn't used much anymore. Still, I'd love to have one. Maybe a computer program could be just as good. Everyone should -in my opinion - fly a tufted glider while training. Ian Tufts are good and yes, students should see them. However, tufts show boundary layer behavior not angle of attack and streamlines. Start with the little smoke tunnel in the classroom and then show them the tufts in flight. Bill Daniels |
#6
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AoA keep it going!
On 16 Dec, 23:19, "Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote:
However, tufts show boundary layer behavior not angle of attack and streamlines. Start with the little smoke tunnel in the classroom and then show them the tufts in flight. Every gliding club should have a copy of "An Album of Fluid Motion" by Milton Van Dyke! Ian |
#7
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AoA keep it going!
Tufts are probably the best way to visualize the unsteady flow near
stall (as long as the tufts are not so large that they affect the flow.) The tufts show when, where, and how the wing actually stalls. The flight can be straight ahead, in a turn, with an accelerated entry, ... The real question is, when does the wing stall and how can information be passed to the pilot to avoid the stall? Tufts are not a very practical method in normal operation, but they are great during the development of a aircraft. Airspeed has been used widely as the indirect means to avoid stall. Airspeed is readily available on any glider and by using a relatively simple weight and bank angle correction, one can determine a safe airspeed. AOA vanes on the fuselage are often used on a range of powered aircraft. On commercial ones, these are often linked electronically to a stick pusher in the cockpit to inhibit stall. Some small airplanes use leading-edge vanes on the inboard wing and I've even seen a small vane on the upper aft portion of the wing on a 1947 Bonanza. If you are concerned about circling flight, a long-span glider flying in a moderately-tight circle, a fuselage-mounted AOA or one on the inboard wing would be somewhat useless, since the inboard wing would stall well before reaching the critical AOA at the fuselage. So now we need multiple sensors, one at each wing tip and possibly one or two at the fuselage with a complex set of electronics and software to sort all the data out and decide the proper answer to give the pilot. Then there are the atmospheric effects. Say you're flying along on final into a strong headwind (common here in Kansas) and you encounter a significant wind shear. This could be caused by a frontal passage or gust from a nearby storm that you are trying to avoid, but more likely a simple wind shadow from a hill, a row of tall trees, a hangar, ... You go from 15 or 20 knots above stall speed to 5 knots below in a matter of a couple of seconds. What sensor would alert you quickly, reliably, and give you extra time to react and avoid the stall? Most of the fatal and serious injury accidents occur while setting up the landing pattern when the glider is allowed to slow too much and go to too large an AOA. If I were want to equip my glider with a warning system, and a purely uncertified one at that since I do know first hand about certification in my day job, I would use a simple differential pressure sensor to measure the airspeed from the delta between total and static pressure and use electronics to trigger an audable warning whenever the airspeed was less than say 12 knots over 1-g stall (not too loud though, maybe my wife's voice saying 'Speed Up'). I would only turn this system on when I enter downwind and am preparing to land. Extra info when most needed. Just my 2 cents worth, ...... Neal Bill Daniels wrote: Tufts are good and yes, students should see them. However, tufts show boundary layer behavior not angle of attack and streamlines. Start with the little smoke tunnel in the classroom and then show them the tufts in flight. Bill Daniels |
#8
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AoA keep it going!
This discussion needs to be divided into two subjects, stall warners and AOA
indicators. They are really two very different devices. A stall warning device tells you that you've made a mistake. An AOA indicator can tell you that you are about to make a mistake. A stall warner is just a on-off binary device. An AOA indicator provides a continuum of information across the whole speed range. AOA tells you about safety margins and the rate of change of that margin. A stall warning device doesn't - unless it's set at a large margin over stall in which case it will be constantly triggered by turbulence and pilots will turn it off. A Cessna-style stall warning would drive a pilot nuts if installed in a glider. The point that AOA varies across the span when thermalling is a good one. Any device mounted on the fuselage won't provide data on the flow at the wing tips. But, modern gliders have wings designed to prevent tip stall so fuselage mounted AOA sensors are still useful. Damning AOA indicators because they aren't perfect is a straw man argument. We have no perfect instruments but they are still useful. AOA indicators are better than ASI's at low speed where there are large errors in airspeed indications but ASI are better at high speed for things like Va and Vne. AOA indicators are faster responding and easier to interpret. i.e. if the needle is in the yellow, push until it isn't. The airspeed will take care of itself. Maneuvering for landing in gusty wind shear is exactly where I'd want an AOA. It will show the maximum gust induced AOA so the airspeed can be increased just enough that no gust stalls the glider but not so much that you'll need to dump a lot of energy in ground effect. Bill Daniels "Neal Pfeiffer" wrote in message et... Tufts are probably the best way to visualize the unsteady flow near stall (as long as the tufts are not so large that they affect the flow.) The tufts show when, where, and how the wing actually stalls. The flight can be straight ahead, in a turn, with an accelerated entry, ... The real question is, when does the wing stall and how can information be passed to the pilot to avoid the stall? Tufts are not a very practical method in normal operation, but they are great during the development of a aircraft. Airspeed has been used widely as the indirect means to avoid stall. Airspeed is readily available on any glider and by using a relatively simple weight and bank angle correction, one can determine a safe airspeed. AOA vanes on the fuselage are often used on a range of powered aircraft. On commercial ones, these are often linked electronically to a stick pusher in the cockpit to inhibit stall. Some small airplanes use leading-edge vanes on the inboard wing and I've even seen a small vane on the upper aft portion of the wing on a 1947 Bonanza. If you are concerned about circling flight, a long-span glider flying in a moderately-tight circle, a fuselage-mounted AOA or one on the inboard wing would be somewhat useless, since the inboard wing would stall well before reaching the critical AOA at the fuselage. So now we need multiple sensors, one at each wing tip and possibly one or two at the fuselage with a complex set of electronics and software to sort all the data out and decide the proper answer to give the pilot. Then there are the atmospheric effects. Say you're flying along on final into a strong headwind (common here in Kansas) and you encounter a significant wind shear. This could be caused by a frontal passage or gust from a nearby storm that you are trying to avoid, but more likely a simple wind shadow from a hill, a row of tall trees, a hangar, ... You go from 15 or 20 knots above stall speed to 5 knots below in a matter of a couple of seconds. What sensor would alert you quickly, reliably, and give you extra time to react and avoid the stall? Most of the fatal and serious injury accidents occur while setting up the landing pattern when the glider is allowed to slow too much and go to too large an AOA. If I were want to equip my glider with a warning system, and a purely uncertified one at that since I do know first hand about certification in my day job, I would use a simple differential pressure sensor to measure the airspeed from the delta between total and static pressure and use electronics to trigger an audable warning whenever the airspeed was less than say 12 knots over 1-g stall (not too loud though, maybe my wife's voice saying 'Speed Up'). I would only turn this system on when I enter downwind and am preparing to land. Extra info when most needed. Just my 2 cents worth, ..... Neal Bill Daniels wrote: Tufts are good and yes, students should see them. However, tufts show boundary layer behavior not angle of attack and streamlines. Start with the little smoke tunnel in the classroom and then show them the tufts in flight. Bill Daniels |
#9
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AoA keep it going!
WOW, What a thread!
The only AoA's that I'm familiar with are huge wedge shaped things that stick out on the side of the fuselage. I wouldn't want one of those on my glider. I'm sure you guys are talking about a much simpler arrangement. I'm also sure that they are much more accurate than the ones I'm familiar with. That being said, this is where I stick my foot in my mouth, IAS and AoA probably would be much more help in a thermal than landing. I think Jim Pane once taped a piece of yarn to the side of his canopy for thermaling. You might check with him. If you are doing spot landings the IAS is not accurate enough. (I used to actually stall on downwind, just to check out where the needle pointed. gives you a very accurate reference point. And if just shooting a landing a 1.3 VS would give you plenty of margin. How much are we going to spend for this AoA? And why is everyone so worried about stalling on final. If you are low and slow think about putting it down long before you get to final. I can almost guarantee that in that situation you will be glued to the airspeed. Two cents worth Chuck |
#10
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AoA keep it going!
fred a écrit :
A favorite question I use for instruction... Which wing in a turn has the greatest angle of attack? Would you be so kind to give us the answer please ? |
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