Pilot's Political Orientation

Webster says autonomous is:
a : existing or capable of existing independently

By this definition, a baby is not autonomous since it relies completely on
its mother for shelter and nourishment for many months after its born. Just
as it does before it is born.


"Tom Sixkiller" wrote in message
...

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Tom Sixkiller" wrote in message
...

Except a fetus is not a human being...it's a fetus. A human being is
an
autonomous being and a fetus is just the opposite.


In humans, a fetus is the unborn young from the end of the eighth week
after
conception to the moment of birth, as distinguished from the earlier
embryo.

Nice lesson in biology, but totally irrelevant.

A fetus is a human being.

A fetus is a fetus and will remain a fetus until it's an autonomous being.
Prior to that, it's an appendage of the mother.

You can call a leg and arm, but until it has fingers rather than toes,
it's
still a leg. The operative word here, in a legal, rather than biological
sense, is AUTOMOMOUS.

In article , "Tom Sixkiller"
wrote:

A fetus is a human being.

A fetus is a fetus and will remain a fetus until it's an autonomous
being.
Prior to that, it's an appendage of the mother.

A fetus is most definitely not an appendage of the mother.
It is a genetically distinct entity. Whether people want
to deny or extend rights to that entity is the root of
the abortion debate.

--
Bob Noel

"Bob Noel" wrote in message
...

A fetus is most definitely not an appendage of the mother.
It is a genetically distinct entity. Whether people want
to deny or extend rights to that entity is the root of
the abortion debate.



It is also related to "rights" and the balance of those rights. One way to
look at it is that it starts out with the mother only having rights and then
as time and the process progresses the other entity has increasing rights.
As has been mentioned before, giving one entity rights frequently means some
other entity loses some rights and this is a good example of that. Society
and government frequently defines some (perhaps arbitrary) point where the
entity has as many, if not sometimes more, rights than the mother.
Religious background plays a big part in the determination of where this
point lies, with some religions saying it is at fertilization. This makes
it a balance of rights issue and there is no universally "right" answer. I
am, however, against the government making laws based on one particular
religious belief. If a huge percentage of people are devout followers of
that religious belief and its tenets then the primary reason for such laws
must be either to enforce that religious belief on either followers who wish
to have an exemption or to force the issue on followers of alternate belief
systems, both of which seem like an overextension of the legitimate power of
government.

So, what does that say about my political orientation? Not much except that
I prefer smaller rather than bigger government, that I prefer fewer rather
than more laws, and that I want the absolute minimal amount of connection
between government and religion. I am neither conservative nor liberal,
neither Republican nor Democrat, and I want to make up my own mind on each
issue independant of the "party line." And, tomorrow I may feel
different...

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:

"G.R. Patterson III" wrote in message
...

Murder is a legal definition made by the State. NOT by you. Abortions
are NOT murder.


I suppose in the strictest sense they're not, as the purpose of the abortion
is just to terminate a pregnancy. But as every effective method of abortion
tends to result in the death of a human being there's no question that
abortion is murder.

Only the killing of a human being that is illegal is murder (and not all of those).
Since abortion is not illegal, it cannot be murder.

George Patterson
None of us is as dumb as all of us.

"G.R. Patterson III" wrote in message
...


"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:

"G.R. Patterson III" wrote in message
...

Murder is a legal definition made by the State. NOT by you. Abortions
are NOT murder.


I suppose in the strictest sense they're not, as the purpose of the
abortion
is just to terminate a pregnancy. But as every effective method of
abortion
tends to result in the death of a human being there's no question that
abortion is murder.

Only the killing of a human being that is illegal is murder (and not all
of those).
Since abortion is not illegal, it cannot be murder.

Well...DUH!!! :~)

"Tom Sixkiller" wrote in message
...

A fetus is a fetus and will remain a fetus until it's an autonomous being.
Prior to that, it's an appendage of the mother.

You can call a leg and arm, but until it has fingers rather than toes,
it's
still a leg. The operative word here, in a legal, rather than biological
sense, is AUTOMOMOUS.


The mother can move her leg at will, but she cannot move the baby's leg.
The baby moves at it's own will. A fetus is an autonomous human being.

"G.R. Patterson III" wrote in message
...

Only the killing of a human being that is illegal is murder (and not all
of those).
Since abortion is not illegal, it cannot be murder.


Says who?

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:

"G.R. Patterson III" wrote in message
...

Only the killing of a human being that is illegal is murder (and not all
of those).
Since abortion is not illegal, it cannot be murder.


Says who?

The Oxford English Dictionary and both American and British Common Law.

George Patterson
None of us is as dumb as all of us.

"G.R. Patterson III" wrote in message
...

The Oxford English Dictionary and both American and British Common Law.


Are you sure? Yesterday you said murder is a legal definition made by the
State.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:

"G.R. Patterson III" wrote in message
...

The Oxford English Dictionary and both American and British Common Law.


Are you sure? Yesterday you said murder is a legal definition made by the
State.

Yes. It's defined in law. It's been defined in law for centuries. The OED echoes that
definition. The State determines what specific killings are illegal. For a killing to
be murder, the victim must be human, the killing must have been intentional, it must
have been premeditated, and it must be illegal. The State defines what is murder and
what is not.

George Patterson
None of us is as dumb as all of us.