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Completing the Non-precision approach as a Visual Approach



 
 
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  #1  
Old November 18th 03, 05:16 AM
John Clonts
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Default Completing the Non-precision approach as a Visual Approach

I'm inbound on the final approach segment of the VOR-A approach at T82
(Fredericksburg Texas):

http://www.myairplane.com/databases/.../T82_vd_gA.pdf

At about 3 miles east of the airport I'm at the MDA of 2460 MSL ("766 AGL"),
mostly in a 700 foot overcast. Through a break in the clouds I clearly see
the airport-- the visibility is about 7 miles.

I descend 166 feet and am able to remain just under the cloud deck for the
final three miles, fly the right hand pattern for runway 14 at 600 AGL, and
land.

Was my descent to about 600 AGL (a) illegal because of 91.175c and/or some
other FAR, or (b) legal because I have now in effect "converted" to a visual
approach and/or am now in uncontrolled airspace (1 mile vis and clear of
clouds).

Mind you I'm not saying I did this last Tuesday, but I might have thought
about it if the conditions had been just so.

Cheers,
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ


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  #2  
Old November 18th 03, 05:40 AM
Bob Gardner
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When you are cleared for the VOR-A you are expected to fly the
profile....fly at the MDA and not a foot lower to the missed approach point
or until you see the runway environment as defined in 91.175. When you see
the airport, you should real quick ask for a contact approach...then you can
follow ground reference and altitude is not a factor.

Bob Gardner

"John Clonts" wrote in message
.. .
I'm inbound on the final approach segment of the VOR-A approach at T82
(Fredericksburg Texas):

http://www.myairplane.com/databases/.../T82_vd_gA.pdf

At about 3 miles east of the airport I'm at the MDA of 2460 MSL ("766

AGL"),
mostly in a 700 foot overcast. Through a break in the clouds I clearly

see
the airport-- the visibility is about 7 miles.

I descend 166 feet and am able to remain just under the cloud deck for the
final three miles, fly the right hand pattern for runway 14 at 600 AGL,

and
land.

Was my descent to about 600 AGL (a) illegal because of 91.175c and/or some
other FAR, or (b) legal because I have now in effect "converted" to a

visual
approach and/or am now in uncontrolled airspace (1 mile vis and clear of
clouds).

Mind you I'm not saying I did this last Tuesday, but I might have thought
about it if the conditions had been just so.

Cheers,
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ




  #3  
Old November 18th 03, 08:06 AM
Hilton
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Default

John Clonts wrote:
I'm inbound on the final approach segment of the VOR-A approach at T82
(Fredericksburg Texas):

http://www.myairplane.com/databases/.../T82_vd_gA.pdf

At about 3 miles east of the airport I'm at the MDA of 2460 MSL ("766

AGL"),

This was (one of) your (almost) fatal mistake. At 2460' and 3 miles out,
you probably were not at 766 AGL. The 766 you see is NOT AGL as you would
first think. The 766' is the altitude above the airport elevation (for a
circling approach). Note that 1694 + 766 = 2460.

It's probable that a lot of instrument pilots do not know this.

Hilton


  #4  
Old November 18th 03, 02:10 PM
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1. You cannot roll your own visual approach. You must have a clearance and the
weather conditions must permit it, as per the guidance in the AIM.

2. What you did is more like a contact approach, which is different from a
visual approach, both, the distinctions of which are well documented and should
be part of your instrument pilot knowledge base.

3. Eventually, such early departures from the IAP not only violate 91.175, they
can eventually result in clipping a hilltop, tree, or tower.

John Clonts wrote:

I'm inbound on the final approach segment of the VOR-A approach at T82
(Fredericksburg Texas):

http://www.myairplane.com/databases/.../T82_vd_gA.pdf

At about 3 miles east of the airport I'm at the MDA of 2460 MSL ("766 AGL"),
mostly in a 700 foot overcast. Through a break in the clouds I clearly see
the airport-- the visibility is about 7 miles.

I descend 166 feet and am able to remain just under the cloud deck for the
final three miles, fly the right hand pattern for runway 14 at 600 AGL, and
land.

Was my descent to about 600 AGL (a) illegal because of 91.175c and/or some
other FAR, or (b) legal because I have now in effect "converted" to a visual
approach and/or am now in uncontrolled airspace (1 mile vis and clear of
clouds).

Mind you I'm not saying I did this last Tuesday, but I might have thought
about it if the conditions had been just so.

Cheers,
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ


  #5  
Old November 18th 03, 02:13 PM
EDR
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Default

In article . net,
Hilton wrote:

John Clonts wrote:
I'm inbound on the final approach segment of the VOR-A approach at T82
(Fredericksburg Texas):

http://www.myairplane.com/databases/.../T82_vd_gA.pdf

At about 3 miles east of the airport I'm at the MDA of 2460 MSL ("766

AGL"),

This was (one of) your (almost) fatal mistake. At 2460' and 3 miles out,
you probably were not at 766 AGL. The 766 you see is NOT AGL as you would
first think. The 766' is the altitude above the airport elevation (for a
circling approach). Note that 1694 + 766 = 2460.

It's probable that a lot of instrument pilots do not know this.


Let's pick nits...
Is it
Height Above Aerodrome?
or
Height Above Threshhold?
  #6  
Old November 18th 03, 03:23 PM
JimBob
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Default

"Bob Gardner" wrote in message news:[email protected]_s52...
When you are cleared for the VOR-A you are expected to fly the
profile....fly at the MDA and not a foot lower to the missed approach point
or until you see the runway environment as defined in 91.175. When you see
the airport, you should real quick ask for a contact approach...then you can
follow ground reference and altitude is not a factor.

Bob Gardner

"John Clonts" wrote in message
.. .
I'm inbound on the final approach segment of the VOR-A approach at T82
(Fredericksburg Texas):

http://www.myairplane.com/databases/.../T82_vd_gA.pdf

At about 3 miles east of the airport I'm at the MDA of 2460 MSL ("766

AGL"),
mostly in a 700 foot overcast. Through a break in the clouds I clearly

see
the airport-- the visibility is about 7 miles.
...

Cheers,
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ



The caviat here is you need to see the runway environment to be
allowed to descend, not just the airport.
  #7  
Old November 18th 03, 03:27 PM
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Default



EDR wrote:

In article . net,
Hilton wrote:

John Clonts wrote:
I'm inbound on the final approach segment of the VOR-A approach at T82
(Fredericksburg Texas):

http://www.myairplane.com/databases/.../T82_vd_gA.pdf

At about 3 miles east of the airport I'm at the MDA of 2460 MSL ("766

AGL"),

This was (one of) your (almost) fatal mistake. At 2460' and 3 miles out,
you probably were not at 766 AGL. The 766 you see is NOT AGL as you would
first think. The 766' is the altitude above the airport elevation (for a
circling approach). Note that 1694 + 766 = 2460.

It's probable that a lot of instrument pilots do not know this.


Let's pick nits...
Is it
Height Above Aerodrome?
or
Height Above Threshhold?


In the U.S. it's HAT for straight-in and HAA for circling. Height Above
Touchdown (the touchdown elevation being the highest point on the first 3,000
feet of the runway). Height Above Airport is based on the highest terrain point
on the airport.

  #8  
Old November 18th 03, 05:28 PM
Newps
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Default



Bob Gardner wrote:

When you are cleared for the VOR-A you are expected to fly the
profile....fly at the MDA and not a foot lower to the missed approach point
or until you see the runway environment as defined in 91.175. When you see
the airport, you should real quick ask for a contact approach...then you can
follow ground reference and altitude is not a factor.


Ah, bull****. He had the runway in sight, descended and landed. What's
the problem?

  #9  
Old November 18th 03, 06:03 PM
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Default



Newps wrote:

Bob Gardner wrote:

When you are cleared for the VOR-A you are expected to fly the
profile....fly at the MDA and not a foot lower to the missed approach point
or until you see the runway environment as defined in 91.175. When you see
the airport, you should real quick ask for a contact approach...then you can
follow ground reference and altitude is not a factor.


Ah, bull****. He had the runway in sight, descended and landed. What's
the problem?


Well, for starters, he entered the pattern for a Runway, which sounds like
circle-to-land to me. There are some pretty specific referenes as to what you
can, and cannot do, in flying a circle-to-land.

Alas, you may consider those regulations to be "bull****."


  #10  
Old November 18th 03, 06:08 PM
David Brooks
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Default

"Newps" wrote in message
news:[email protected]_s03...


Bob Gardner wrote:

When you are cleared for the VOR-A you are expected to fly the
profile....fly at the MDA and not a foot lower to the missed approach

point
or until you see the runway environment as defined in 91.175. When you

see
the airport, you should real quick ask for a contact approach...then you

can
follow ground reference and altitude is not a factor.


Ah, bull****. He had the runway in sight, descended and landed. What's
the problem?


It depends on the missing information in the phrase:

I descend 166 feet and am able to remain just under the cloud deck


John, if this had actually happened, could you see the runway all the time
during that descent?

-- David Brooks


 




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