VX-4 phantom loads

On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 09:02:41 GMT, Guy Alcala
wrote:

Ed Rasimus wrote:

On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 15:15:52 GMT, Guy Alcala
wrote:

Ed Rasimus wrote:

Sorry for the delayed reply; I've been waiting to get Thornborough's 2nd Ed. "thePhantom Story" from the library,
so I could check my memory against it. AFAIR the Varks didn't need to tank on the way in, and they were usually
operating at night (on solo missions to RP VI) in any case, so I don't think the warning time was anywhere near
what it was for the typical Alpha Strike.

You are correct, the -111s didn't tank routinely and they preferred
night solo. But, my point was that even given that you weren't at high
altitude, the HUMINT reports for the bad guys from the bases as well
as ground observers along the rather limited route options would be
more than enough to let the target area know someone was coming.


If that's the definition, I categorically state that I never saw it
done. Never. Not even considered in discussions of how to improve our
tactics. First time I ever heard it suggested was around '74-'75 when
we were going to use it (simulated) in missions against CVBG forces in
the Mediterranean. (I discuss the tactic in my Air Command/Staff
College paper, "Sink the Kiev" as a means of rolling back the defenses
and providing suppression during an attack against a Soviet battle
group.)

As it turns out, my memory was off; "The Phantom Story" doesn't include any accounts of pre-emptive firing by the
67th TFS in 1972. Knowing that I hadn't dreamed reading an account bya participant who stated they did so, I went
looking on googlegroups and lo and behold found this in a past discussion involving you, Dweezil, Kurt Plummer and
several others on the same subject. You had stated that you were unaware of any, and then we got these posts:
----------------------------------------------------------------

matheson
Feb 6 1999, 12:00 am show options


Ed Rasimus wrote in message et...
Kurt Plummer wrote:

snippage

I NEVER heard of pre-emptive lofting of Shrikes either in early Weasel
days as a 105-driver or during Linebacker as a Phantom Pilot in H/K
teams. The first consideration of pre-emptive ARM firing that I can
recall was in tactics manuals that I researched while at Command &
Staff in '77-78 writing about anti-ship operations.

That's funny, as the Israelis used pre-emptive shrikes at high altitude and
absolute max range (and time of flight) to great advantage in 1967 attacks
on Egyptian SAM sites. Again in '73.

That demonstrates that my statements have been consistent for lo these
many years. And, it also points out that the IAF had a better concept
of tactics as well as a better supply chain than we did. Since their
wars tended to be of the week or less variety, they probably could
expend a bit more aggressively. (I know, the week or less comment is a
bit of exaggeration.)

When I started flying C model F-4 Weasels in '78 the pre-emptive shot was
dogma, especially in PACAF, and every check ride we were expected to
calculate a point in space from which to preempt a -45 so as to impact just
prior to strike force bombs on target (supposedly they would unmask and get
the trons on the air and the -45 would hit before reaction time of the
system.

Les

You might note that '78 is a mere six years after the end of LB II.
And, I mention writing about it in '77 at ACSC.
--------------------------------------
Even more relevant was this one:
--------------------------------------

Robert W. King
Feb 6 1999, 12:00 am show options


Hi Ed!

Ed Rasimus wrote in message

t...

[stuff snipped]


In the 561st TFS flying from Khorat RTAFB in 1972, we lofted pre-emptive
Shrikes on a fairly regular basis on force goes to high threat areas. We
also briefed this tactic to the the non-Weasel guys because we had a couple
of incidents where the MIGCAP or strike guys saw the Shrike in flight,
yelled "SAM" and called for a break.

While I've got great respect for Bear King's experience, I've got to
say that as one of about eight crews of H/K specialists in the F-4
squadron at the time, I would have seen it done or at least briefed
during the summer and fall of '72.

And, while the AGM-78 "Standard ARM" often got a SAM call from newbies
in the area, a Shrike shot was way too short in duration and too small
for most folks to see. If someone did see it, the greater probability
would be an "Atoll" call. (The Standard sightings were enough of a
problem that Weasels began to alert the force with a call of "Shotgun"
prior to firing the big brute.)

I vaguely recall it being discussed as a possible tactic among the Weasel
crews as early as my tour with the 333rd at Takhli in 1968, but I don't
recall ever actually deliberately launching in that mode on that tour. Of
course, there was the day that Bob Beckpre-empted a Shrike from level flight
on a "patrol the border" mission over Laos after the bombing pause was
ordered by the President in November 68.

So, an inadvertent firing recount and a confirmation that it wasn't
done in '68.


So it appears that it was common at least among the 67th TFS guys, and you were unaware of it at the time. This
suggests that it might also have been happening among the F-105G crews in the April-December period, since the 67th
crews flew with the105Gs at first (as theater indoctrination and to bone up on the latest techniques before they
started flying separate missions).

Guy

The 67th deployment was late in the year. (I'm too lazy to look it up
this AM, but I'd say Oct-Nov of '72). They did some pairings with the
561st/17th F-105G guys for local orientation, but that was mostly to
lower Route Packs and very brief.

When they finally got thrown into LB II, there was so much activity
upon arrival in RP-VI that pre-empting would have been virtually
impossible. And, if you're going to have all sort of hot sites on the
scope, why not target specific ones?


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
www.thundertales.blogspot.com