A aviation & planes forum. AviationBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » AviationBanter forum » rec.aviation newsgroups » Piloting
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Downdraft at 12,000 feet



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #31  
Old January 4th 07, 06:43 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Danny Deger
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 347
Default Downdraft at 12,000 feet


"Stefan" wrote in message
. ..
James Robinson schrieb:

Can somebody explain what he did right/wrong?


His mistake was to go there in the first place.

I've been taught an iron rule: Never ever fly on top of a closed cloud
layer over mountains in a light single. Because if you hit downdraft over
mountains, you will *not* be able to hold altitude. With a closed layer
this means that you will find yourself between mountains in the soup.
(Which means that most probably you won't be able to tell anybody about it
afterwards).

A closed layer over mountains is a definitve no-go situation for a light
single, unless you like to gamble.


For the same reason, I would think the same would apply for a light twin.

Danny Deger



  #32  
Old January 4th 07, 07:02 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Jose[_1_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,632
Default Downdraft at 12,000 feet


No certificated GA plane is unstable in roll.


Uh, even an Archer is unstable in roll. I went out and tried it myself.

Are you using a different definition of "unstable"? Here's what I did:
I went up on a calm night, trimmed for straight and level flight, and
let go of the controls. The plane flew nicely for about a minute or
three, by which time the aircraft had gotten itself into about a half
standard rate turn, which kept tightening. It took a good few minutes
to get to that point, but it did so every time (and not always in the
same direction). So, on the larger scale, it is unstable in roll,
albeit not =very= unstable in roll. Small excursions lead to larger
excursions. It does require active attention to fly it.

Do you mean something else?

Jose
--
He who laughs, lasts.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
  #33  
Old January 4th 07, 07:06 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Jose[_1_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,632
Default Downdraft at 12,000 feet

Now, just because there is not
enough water in the air to see the wave does not mean that they
don't exist... just that you can not see them.


Does the presence of water intensify the wave, inasmuch as the
evaporation and condensation of water is also an energy pump?

Jose
--
He who laughs, lasts.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
  #34  
Old January 4th 07, 07:27 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Newps
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,886
Default Downdraft at 12,000 feet



Danny Deger wrote:


No certificated GA plane is unstable in roll.


Go rent one and see for yourself.

I own one.


If you put it in a 30 degree bank
and let go of the stick, the roll will increase until you are in a death
spiral.



Yours was rigged wrong. When put in a coordinated bank it will stay in
that bank.



That is why so many Bonanzas end up in one compared with other
airplanes. As far as I know, all Cessnas are stable in roll, i.e. without
pilot intervention they roll back to wings level.


I had a 182 for seven years and they will act the same as my Bonanza.
Put them in a coordinated bank and it will stay there.



  #35  
Old January 4th 07, 08:45 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Danny Deger
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 347
Default Downdraft at 12,000 feet


"Jose" wrote in message
. net...

No certificated GA plane is unstable in roll.


Uh, even an Archer is unstable in roll. I went out and tried it myself.

Are you using a different definition of "unstable"? Here's what I did: I
went up on a calm night, trimmed for straight and level flight, and let go
of the controls. The plane flew nicely for about a minute or three, by
which time the aircraft had gotten itself into about a half standard rate
turn, which kept tightening. It took a good few minutes to get to that
point, but it did so every time (and not always in the same direction).
So, on the larger scale, it is unstable in roll, albeit not =very=
unstable in roll. Small excursions lead to larger excursions. It does
require active attention to fly it.


I agree 100% with what you are saying about instability. In my C35 Bonanza,
the roll off would happen fairly fast.

Danny Deger


  #36  
Old January 4th 07, 08:49 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Danny Deger
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 347
Default Downdraft at 12,000 feet


"James Robinson" wrote in message
. ..
Pilot reported heavy downdraft over Lancaster, CA, resulting in crash.

http://www.orovillemr.com/news/chico/ci_4917367

Can somebody explain what he did right/wrong?


Are there any more details on how he "crashed" an airplane that was
apparently out of control, but didn't die? He must have had control of the
airplane when it hit the ground, but if he had control he wouldn't have hit
the ground.

Danny Deger


  #37  
Old January 4th 07, 09:33 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
JGalban[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1
Default Downdraft at 12,000 feet


Jer wrote :
So, over 25 KN winds aloft, I choose to stay FAR away from the
rotors... and WATCH where the waves set-up, as the rotors
are under where the waves peak. Now, just because there is not
enough water in the air to see the wave does not mean that they
don't exist... just that you can not see them.


That's the trouble with rotors. Even when there is enough moisture
to show standing lenticular clouds over the peaks, you may have no
indication of where the rotor is on the downwind side of the range.

The only rotor I ever flew into was just after coming out of a pass
in the Alaska range. There were lenticulars over the peaks, so I knew
there would be rotors downwind. I underestimated how far from the
mountains the rotor would be. After flying about 10 miles out of the
pass, I felt it would be safe to make a right turn, parallel to the
mountain range. I was wrong and flew right into the rotor. I spent a
good 5 min. with very little control over my plane. It was a very
upleasant feeling. If that happened in IMC, I wouldn't give big odds
on getting out in one piece.

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)


--
JGalban
Posted at www.flight.org

  #38  
Old January 4th 07, 10:12 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Stefan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 578
Default Downdraft at 12,000 feet

JGalban schrieb:

I spent a good 5 min. with very little control over my plane.


You stayed 5 minutes in the rotor and didn't even think of doing a 90
degrees turn and leave it?

If that happened in IMC,


Rotors, except at their very top, are always VMC.

Stefan
  #39  
Old January 4th 07, 10:34 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 86
Default Downdraft at 12,000 feet

Jose wrote:
Now, just because there is not
enough water in the air to see the wave does not mean that they
don't exist... just that you can not see them.


Does the presence of water intensify the wave, inasmuch as the
evaporation and condensation of water is also an energy pump?


An excellent thought, but no, the wind is the driving force and the
prime energy factor.

When evaporation and condensation is the driving force, you get
towering cumulo-nimbus and vertical wind sheer (severe downdrafts).

Best regards,

Jer/ "Flight instruction and mountain flying are my vocations!"
--
Jer/ (Slash) Eberhard, Mountain Flying Aviation, LTD, Ft Collins, CO
CELL 970 231-6325 EMAIL jer at frii.com http://users.frii.com/jer/
C-206 N9513G, CFII Airplane&Glider FAA-DEN Aviation Safety Counselor
CAP-CO Mission&Aircraft CheckPilot BM218 HAM N0FZD 247 Young Eagles!
  #40  
Old January 4th 07, 11:23 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
N2310D
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 66
Default Downdraft at 12,000 feet


"Stefan" wrote in message
...
Morgans schrieb:

From what I have read, entering a real rotor, one would be lucky to be
spat out with the wings still attached to the plane.


Thoughts? Some out here can discuss rotors with authority, I'm sure.


Glider pilots use rotors routinely as an elevator to the wave. At some
places, the tow plane tows them right into the rotor. (Formation flight
into the rotor.) So far, all wings still in place and everybody still
alive. Just make sure you stay well below vB.


No, gliders may transit the rotor but they sure as hell don't like
to fly in it. The best way is to catch the bottom of the wave near the lee
side of whatever terrain is creating it. Some even work on towing or
thermaling into the secondary or tertiary wave and avoid the primary rotor
all together.


 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Air Force One Had to Intercept Some Inadvertent Flyers / How? Rick Umali Piloting 29 February 15th 06 05:40 AM
I want to build the most EVIL plane EVER !!! Eliot Coweye Home Built 237 February 13th 06 04:55 AM
Most reliable homebuilt helicopter? tom pettit Home Built 35 September 29th 05 02:24 PM
Mini-500 Accident Analysis Dennis Fetters Rotorcraft 16 September 3rd 05 11:35 AM
Looking for Cessna Caravan pilots [email protected] Owning 9 April 1st 04 02:54 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 02:18 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 AviationBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.