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Just Bought A Plane? STAY OUT OF FLORIDA !



 
 
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  #21  
Old March 24th 08, 02:33 AM posted to rec.aviation.owning,rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.homebuilt
Mike Murdock
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 21
Default Just Bought A Plane? STAY OUT OF FLORIDA !


"Peter Clark" wrote in message
...
SNIP
Mr Cheung reports that, "I can say unequivocally that Florida
Department of Revenue has assessed 6% use tax to a NON-FLORIDA
resident, visiting Florida for SIMCOM training shortly after purchase
the aircraft."

Cheung substantiated the statement with the "...facts of this
assessment."

North Carolina resident purchased a plane in North Carolina
This North Carolina taxpayer brought his plane into Florida for SIMCOM
training
This NC taxpayer does not own a business in Florida, does not own real
estate in Florida and he is not an officer in a Florida corporation
FL DOR located his aircraft on a ramp check and issued an assessment
based on Florida Admin. Code Rule 12A-1.007(2)(a)
The taxpayer PAID the FL use tax plus interest and penalty.
A refund has not been issued as of last week "

SNIP
So, I can see where FL DOR is getting off on billing people with the
presumption that it was spotted in the state 6mo or less after
purchase on the bill of sale. Kind of like Maine was (is?) not too
long ago. Maybe that's where the DOR honchos said "Hey, let's start
doing some ramp checks, this looks like easy money." Pretty crappy
thing to do if you're there for training but that's why people are
fighting it. I guess the only defense would be to provide six months
of tiedown bills from another state covering the first six months of
time after purchase?


I know Daniel Cheung personally, and he is a straight shooter. The facts
are as stated. The ONLY reason the Meridian owner was charged with the tax
was that he had it at a Florida airport for a few days while he was there
for training. He didn't buy the plane in Florida, was never a Florida
resident, and didn't have any business interests in Florida. The way the
Florida tax law is currently written, it is all perfectly legal. The only
exception: you are exempt if the airplane is in Florida for service.

Showing proof that the airplane is kept in another state is immaterial. The
Meridian owner spent $10,000 in legal fees fighting this before giving up
and paying the tax.

Whatever Campbell's beef with SNF, his basic facts are correct. The Florida
Dept. of Revenue believes it has the right to collect use tax on
out-of-state planes, and has done so in the past. Now, I doubt that even
those idiots would be foolish enough to try it at SNF, and they may well
have assured SNF management that they will not do so, but the fact remains
that their law gives them the right to collect.

By the way, this does not apply just to new airplanes. It applies to ANY
airplane, new or used, purchased in the prior six months.

The Florida government is aware of this issue, and I suspect they are a bit
embarassed by the bad publicity. A Florida legislator is working on a bill
that would make the tax apply only to Florida residents.

-Mike

  #22  
Old March 24th 08, 03:04 AM posted to rec.aviation.owning,rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.homebuilt
John Ammeter
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 76
Default Just Bought A Plane? STAY OUT OF FLORIDA !

I've read the statute and have copied part of it below:



2) Purchases Outside Florida.

(a) There shall be a presumption that any aircraft, boat, mobile
home, motor vehicle, or other vehicle purchased in another state,
territory of the United States, or the District of Columbia but
titled, registered, or licensed in this state is taxable except as
otherwise provided in subsection (26) of this rule.



The way I read it is the aircraft is taxable IF it's "titled, registered
or licensed" in Florida. IF the aircraft was purchased more than 6
months ago then the tax isn't applicable.

So, I buy a Cessna in Alabama where I live and work. And register it in
Alabama... Then it's not a taxable event in Florida. BUT, if I buy it
in Alabama and then, for some unknown reason, I register it in
Florida... then it's a taxable event.

I note that the statement that Cheung made didn't address whether or not
the aircraft was registered in Florida or somewhere else. If the
Meridian owner had registered the aircraft in Florida then, of course,
the tax was applicable. It's possible the owner failed to register the
aircraft in a state other than Florida. I can certainly see where
Florida tax officials could easily make the assumption that the owner
was trying to avoid paying taxes at all...

We don't know all the details. It appears the author of the article was
more concerned about trashing Sun and Fun than actually doing real
investigative and non-biased reporting. But, that's what we've grown to
expect from Captain Zoom...

John

Mike Murdock wrote:



I know Daniel Cheung personally, and he is a straight shooter. The
facts are as stated. The ONLY reason the Meridian owner was charged
with the tax was that he had it at a Florida airport for a few days
while he was there for training. He didn't buy the plane in Florida,
was never a Florida resident, and didn't have any business interests in
Florida. The way the Florida tax law is currently written, it is all
perfectly legal. The only exception: you are exempt if the airplane is
in Florida for service.

Showing proof that the airplane is kept in another state is immaterial.
The Meridian owner spent $10,000 in legal fees fighting this before
giving up and paying the tax.

Whatever Campbell's beef with SNF, his basic facts are correct. The
Florida Dept. of Revenue believes it has the right to collect use tax on
out-of-state planes, and has done so in the past. Now, I doubt that
even those idiots would be foolish enough to try it at SNF, and they may
well have assured SNF management that they will not do so, but the fact
remains that their law gives them the right to collect.

By the way, this does not apply just to new airplanes. It applies to
ANY airplane, new or used, purchased in the prior six months.

The Florida government is aware of this issue, and I suspect they are a
bit embarassed by the bad publicity. A Florida legislator is working on
a bill that would make the tax apply only to Florida residents.

-Mike

  #23  
Old March 24th 08, 03:22 AM posted to rec.aviation.owning,rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.homebuilt
BobR
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 356
Default Just Bought A Plane? STAY OUT OF FLORIDA !

On Mar 23, 5:39*pm, wrote:
On Mar 23, 3:44*pm, Peter Clark





wrote:
On Sun, 23 Mar 2008 11:34:57 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
This latest line of zzzoom B.S. is one of those deals that just don't
add up. Can you imagine Netjets or some outfit like that flying a new
Gulfstream into Florida to pick up a charter and get that tax bill.
Maybe the state should just post a tax collector at each gate at MIA
and bill American every time they taxi in a new 777.


I liked the part toward the end of his rant about SnF inflating their
visitor count. I remember when the worthless ******* sued me (I won).
He stated under oath that he had in excess of 45,000 paid subscribers
to his so called magazine most believe it was closer to maybe 4,000 or
less.


This is just his latest ploy to stick it to SnF for barring him from
the show. You can about set your watch by his annual anti- Sun n Fun
rant.


*Frank M.Hitlaw at my Secret World Hq


He might have a not-so-secret agenda, but wanna tell the Meridian
owner who got a $100,000+ tax bill when he showed up at SimCom for a
week that it's all in this guy's head?- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -


I got a notion that there is more to this than meets the eye. What if
the guy bought the plane in Florida, he would owe the sales taxes on
it. I can think of other scenarios that could cause this to happen. I
don't know but I am very skeptical of anything that comes from
campbell. So far we have only heard one side of this story.

Frank M.Hitlaw at my Secret World Hq- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Specific Exemptions

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

An aircraft may be purchased tax-exempt if it is sold by or through a
registered dealer to a nonresident purchaser who will remove the
aircraft from this state. Within 5 days of the date of sale, the
dealer must provide DOR with a copy of the invoice, bill of sale, and/
or closing statement; and the original, signed, removal affidavit.

Tax will not be due if either of the following requirements are met:

The aircraft must be removed from Florida within 10 days from the date
of sale.
If the aircraft needs repairs, additions, or alterations, it must
immediately be placed in a repair facility registered with DOR and
removed from Florida within 20 days from the date the work is
complete.
The purchaser must also meet these requirements:

Sign an affidavit attesting that the purchaser has read the applicable
rules and law regarding the exemption claimed and will timely remove
the aircraft as required.
Within 10 days of removal, furnish DOR with proof that the aircraft
left Florida (submit copies of receipts for fuel charges, tie-down
charges, or repair or hangar charges from outside Florida).
Within 30 days of departure, furnish DOR with written proof that the
aircraft was licensed, registered, titled, and hangared outside
Florida.
This exemption does not apply to sales to Florida residents,
corporations whose officers or directors are Florida residents, or
other entities whose controlling individual is a Florida resident.

==========================

Seems the specific exemptions are fairly clear. Based on these, there
should be no reason for fear to those going to Sun-N-Fun.

  #24  
Old March 24th 08, 03:32 PM posted to rec.aviation.owning,rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.homebuilt
Harry K
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 153
Default Just Bought A Plane? STAY OUT OF FLORIDA !

On Mar 23, 7:22*pm, BobR wrote:
On Mar 23, 5:39*pm, wrote:





On Mar 23, 3:44*pm, Peter Clark


wrote:
On Sun, 23 Mar 2008 11:34:57 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
This latest line of zzzoom B.S. is one of those deals that just don't
add up. Can you imagine Netjets or some outfit like that flying a new
Gulfstream into Florida to pick up a charter and get that tax bill.
Maybe the state should just post a tax collector at each gate at MIA
and bill American every time they taxi in a new 777.


I liked the part toward the end of his rant about SnF inflating their
visitor count. I remember when the worthless ******* sued me (I won).
He stated under oath that he had in excess of 45,000 paid subscribers
to his so called magazine most believe it was closer to maybe 4,000 or
less.


This is just his latest ploy to stick it to SnF for barring him from
the show. You can about set your watch by his annual anti- Sun n Fun
rant.


*Frank M.Hitlaw at my Secret World Hq


He might have a not-so-secret agenda, but wanna tell the Meridian
owner who got a $100,000+ tax bill when he showed up at SimCom for a
week that it's all in this guy's head?- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -


I got a notion that there is more to this than meets the eye. What if
the guy bought the plane in Florida, he would owe the sales taxes on
it. I can think of other scenarios that could cause this to happen. I
don't know but I am very skeptical of anything that comes from
campbell. So far we have only heard one side of this story.


Frank M.Hitlaw at my Secret World Hq- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -


Specific Exemptions

---------------------------------------------------------------------------*-----

An aircraft may be purchased tax-exempt if it is sold by or through a
registered dealer to a nonresident purchaser who will remove the
aircraft from this state. Within 5 days of the date of sale, the
dealer must provide DOR with a copy of the invoice, bill of sale, and/
or closing statement; and the original, signed, removal affidavit.

Tax will not be due if either of the following requirements are met:

The aircraft must be removed from Florida within 10 days from the date
of sale.
If the aircraft needs repairs, additions, or alterations, it must
immediately be placed in a repair facility registered with DOR and
removed from Florida within 20 days from the date the work is
complete.
The purchaser must also meet these requirements:

Sign an affidavit attesting that the purchaser has read the applicable
rules and law regarding the exemption claimed and will timely remove
the aircraft as required.
Within 10 days of removal, furnish DOR with proof that the aircraft
left Florida (submit copies of receipts for fuel charges, tie-down
charges, or repair or hangar charges from outside Florida).
Within 30 days of departure, furnish DOR with written proof that the
aircraft was licensed, registered, titled, and hangared outside
Florida.
This exemption does not apply to sales to Florida residents,
corporations whose officers or directors are Florida residents, or
other entities whose controlling individual is a Florida resident.

==========================

Seems the specific exemptions are fairly clear. *Based on these, there
should be no reason for fear to those going to Sun-N-Fun.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Trying to tax an airplane (or other vehicle) legally bought and
registered in another state state would be in conflict with federal
laws concerning the 'right of free travel', i.e., you can travel
freely across state borders. They can no more tax a plane in those
circumstances than they can an automobile, boat, etc. Not to say they
can't charge user fees but that is a different animal.

Harry K
  #25  
Old March 25th 08, 12:07 AM posted to rec.aviation.owning,rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.homebuilt
Roger[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 677
Default Just Bought A Plane? STAY OUT OF FLORIDA !

On Sun, 23 Mar 2008 19:04:43 -0700, John Ammeter
wrote:

I've read the statute and have copied part of it below:



2) Purchases Outside Florida.

(a) There shall be a presumption that any aircraft, boat, mobile
home, motor vehicle, or other vehicle purchased in another state,
territory of the United States, or the District of Columbia but
titled, registered, or licensed in this state is taxable except as
otherwise provided in subsection (26) of this rule.



The way I read it is the aircraft is taxable IF it's "titled, registered
or licensed" in Florida. IF the aircraft was purchased more than 6
months ago then the tax isn't applicable.


Read the AOPA's take on it.
http://www.aopa.org/advocacy/article.../080320fl.html
If you read farther in the statute, the way the state is
*apparently* intertpeting it is ANY anirplane brought into the state
purchased less than 6 months prior whether it is registered in the
state or not.


So, I buy a Cessna in Alabama where I live and work. And register it in
Alabama... Then it's not a taxable event in Florida. BUT, if I buy it
in Alabama and then, for some unknown reason, I register it in
Florida... then it's a taxable event.

I note that the statement that Cheung made didn't address whether or not
the aircraft was registered in Florida or somewhere else. If the
Meridian owner had registered the aircraft in Florida then, of course,
the tax was applicable. It's possible the owner failed to register the
aircraft in a state other than Florida. I can certainly see where
Florida tax officials could easily make the assumption that the owner
was trying to avoid paying taxes at all...

We don't know all the details. It appears the author of the article was
more concerned about trashing Sun and Fun than actually doing real
investigative and non-biased reporting. But, that's what we've grown to


Skip Campbell and read the AOPA:-))

expect from Captain Zoom...

John

Mike Murdock wrote:



I know Daniel Cheung personally, and he is a straight shooter. The
facts are as stated. The ONLY reason the Meridian owner was charged
with the tax was that he had it at a Florida airport for a few days
while he was there for training. He didn't buy the plane in Florida,
was never a Florida resident, and didn't have any business interests in
Florida. The way the Florida tax law is currently written, it is all
perfectly legal. The only exception: you are exempt if the airplane is
in Florida for service.

Showing proof that the airplane is kept in another state is immaterial.
The Meridian owner spent $10,000 in legal fees fighting this before
giving up and paying the tax.

Whatever Campbell's beef with SNF, his basic facts are correct. The
Florida Dept. of Revenue believes it has the right to collect use tax on
out-of-state planes, and has done so in the past. Now, I doubt that
even those idiots would be foolish enough to try it at SNF, and they may
well have assured SNF management that they will not do so, but the fact
remains that their law gives them the right to collect.

By the way, this does not apply just to new airplanes. It applies to
ANY airplane, new or used, purchased in the prior six months.

The Florida government is aware of this issue, and I suspect they are a
bit embarassed by the bad publicity. A Florida legislator is working on
a bill that would make the tax apply only to Florida residents.

-Mike

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
  #26  
Old March 25th 08, 12:28 AM posted to rec.aviation.owning,rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.homebuilt
Roger[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 677
Default Just Bought A Plane? STAY OUT OF FLORIDA !



Seems the specific exemptions are fairly clear. *Based on these, there
should be no reason for fear to those going to Sun-N-Fun.- Hide quoted text -


http://www.aopa.org/advocacy/article.../080320fl.html
Apparently some of their collectors are placing a different
interpetation on the rules.



- Show quoted text -


Trying to tax an airplane (or other vehicle) legally bought and
registered in another state state would be in conflict with federal
laws concerning the 'right of free travel', i.e., you can travel
freely across state borders. They can no more tax a plane in those
circumstances than they can an automobile, boat, etc. Not to say they
can't charge user fees but that is a different animal.


Hasn't the statre of Maine been doing just that?


Harry K

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
  #27  
Old March 25th 08, 01:49 AM posted to rec.aviation.owning,rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.homebuilt
Jim Logajan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,958
Default Just Bought A Plane? STAY OUT OF FLORIDA !

"Mike Murdock" wrote:
I know Daniel Cheung personally, and he is a straight shooter. The
facts are as stated. The ONLY reason the Meridian owner was charged
with the tax was that he had it at a Florida airport for a few days
while he was there for training. He didn't buy the plane in Florida,
was never a Florida resident, and didn't have any business interests
in Florida.


Someone mentioned that the _one_ identified incident involved an
aircraft that was allegedly a Meridian - I presume they meant a Piper
Meridian - is that correct?

If that is the case, isn't it true that Piper is based in Florida and
its tax "nexus" is therefore Florida?

Was the seller Piper or some other Florida entity for the purposes of
sales tax or not? If not, what state did the seller reside in for sales
tax purposes?

Also, I notice that on Aviation Tax Consultants web page (Danial
Cheung's firm; http://www.aviationtaxconsultants.com/index.html) there
is one article that mentions an incident in Florida that happened in
August 2007:

http://www.aviationtaxconsultants.co...Aug%202007.pdf

If this is the same incident, why is it being brought up 7 months later?

I suppose I could contact Daniel Cheung directly, but am hoping you can
supply an answer since you seem to have the information at hand and I
presume he is unfamiliar with Usenet.
  #28  
Old March 25th 08, 02:37 AM posted to rec.aviation.owning,rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.homebuilt
ChuckSlusarczyk
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 216
Default Just Bought A Plane? STAY OUT OF FLORIDA !

In article , Jim Logajan says...
?

Also, I notice that on Aviation Tax Consultants web page (Danial
Cheung's firm; http://www.aviationtaxconsultants.com/index.html) there
is one article that mentions an incident in Florida that happened in
August 2007:

http://www.aviationtaxconsultants.co...Aug%202007.pdf

If this is the same incident, why is it being brought up 7 months later?


Easy 7 months ago zoom was still involved with his lawsuit against SnF and
didn't need to. Now that his lawsuit was dismissed and he lost he needed
something to go after SnF with for his annual SnF rant and this is it.

Chuck(I bet there's more to it )S

  #29  
Old March 25th 08, 02:45 AM posted to rec.aviation.owning,rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.homebuilt
Peter Dohm
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,754
Default Just Bought A Plane? STAY OUT OF FLORIDA !

"Roger" wrote in message
...


Seems the specific exemptions are fairly clear. Based on these, there
should be no reason for fear to those going to Sun-N-Fun.- Hide quoted
text -


http://www.aopa.org/advocacy/article.../080320fl.html
Apparently some of their collectors are placing a different
interpetation on the rules.



- Show quoted text -


Trying to tax an airplane (or other vehicle) legally bought and
registered in another state state would be in conflict with federal
laws concerning the 'right of free travel', i.e., you can travel
freely across state borders. They can no more tax a plane in those
circumstances than they can an automobile, boat, etc. Not to say they
can't charge user fees but that is a different animal.


Hasn't the statre of Maine been doing just that?


Harry K

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com


My copy of AOPA Pilot was in today's mail and, as of press time, the Maine
case is still going. Apparently, the Maine revenue department won't budge
and the case is now headed to court...

Not my area of expertise, so that's all I know.
Peter



  #30  
Old March 25th 08, 03:33 AM posted to rec.aviation.owning,rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.homebuilt
Roger[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 677
Default Just Bought A Plane? STAY OUT OF FLORIDA !

On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 21:45:41 -0400, "Peter Dohm"
wrote:

"Roger" wrote in message
.. .


Seems the specific exemptions are fairly clear. Based on these, there
should be no reason for fear to those going to Sun-N-Fun.- Hide quoted
text -


http://www.aopa.org/advocacy/article.../080320fl.html
Apparently some of their collectors are placing a different
interpetation on the rules.



- Show quoted text -

Trying to tax an airplane (or other vehicle) legally bought and
registered in another state state would be in conflict with federal
laws concerning the 'right of free travel', i.e., you can travel
freely across state borders. They can no more tax a plane in those
circumstances than they can an automobile, boat, etc. Not to say they
can't charge user fees but that is a different animal.


Hasn't the statre of Maine been doing just that?


Harry K

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com


My copy of AOPA Pilot was in today's mail and, as of press time, the Maine
case is still going. Apparently, the Maine revenue department won't budge
and the case is now headed to court...

Not my area of expertise, so that's all I know.

Me neither, but the AOPA online site is saying they are working with
the state of Florida for a moratorium until after SnF and then rectify
things . They seem to think (the way I read it) is this could be a
big problem for SnF if not settled or a moratorium comes about to
protect those flying into SnF.

The problem I see on here is the guys are so hung up on Zoomn (and I
understand why) but the problem in this case according to the AOPA
is the state of Florida.
Peter


Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
 




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