How to adhere to this obstacle departure procedure?

Greg Esres wrote:

No doubt. But what I question is the standards by which you judge
your instructors.

What's to question? Being that I already have my instrument rating, I now
prefer an instructor who has actually flown in the system for real, not one
who sat right seat as an instructor all of his hours. I seek to learn more
of the "IFR subtleties" we touched on in this thread.

I noticed you conveniently skipped over the sincere question about your
background.

You certainly want someone with a reasonable amount of IMC time, so
that you will feel safe when you fly with him.

It has nothing to do with "feeling" safe when I fly with the instructor.
Instead, it has everything to do with getting what I pay for, which is to
learn from someone much more experienced than I. An instructor who has
little actual IMC time and has placed a hood on a student's eyes more than
he has flown behind one himself is not one on which I wish to spend my
money.

But beyond that, what benefit does it provide you?

See above.

snip
But hey, the guy is experienced! Sounds like the instructor for you.

LOL! You are funny. This pilot sounds like a real a-hole and a two-minute
conversation with him would certainly reveal this.

Greg, it seems to me that you may have taken my comments about instructors
personally. My apologies if this is so and I do not desire to continue
down this ever-eroding path with you.

--
Peter


















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Greg Esres wrote:

Tim's comments have consistently been in line with these authoritative
sources, so I'm inclined to grant him a higher credibility than other
posters on this subject.

Likewise. After three years of reading this group, it is apparent to me
who is credible and who is not.

--
Peter


















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it seems to me that you may have taken my comments about instructors
personally.

Hardly. Locally, I'm "high time" so you'd probably be flying with me.

I seek to learn more of the "IFR subtleties" we touched on in this
thread.

My original point is that you would not have learned them from
"experienced" instructors or pilots, any more than from a newbie. You
learned them here.

It has nothing to do with "feeling" safe when I fly with the
instructor. Instead, it has everything to do with getting what I pay
for, which is to learn from someone much more experienced than I.

While you're an instrument student, everybody is more experienced than
you are, even a time builder..

Again, my orignial point was that while learning, the time builder was
fine for you, as long as he was competent. A more knowledgable
teacher would have been wasted on you, until you learned the basics.

wrote:

On Sun, 24 Apr 2005 19:05:36 GMT, Greg Esres
wrote:

What sort of climb gradient you end up with is due to chance.

Maybe in YOUR aviating world.

Climb gradients, especially when flying an obstacle departure
procedure in IMC, are WAY too important to leave to chance. Your
life may very well depend on them.

Unless you have a bird with great climb performance, it all becomes a
crap shoot of sorts.

"Peter R." wrote:

Greg Esres wrote:

Tim's comments have consistently been in line with these authoritative
sources, so I'm inclined to grant him a higher credibility than other
posters on this subject.

Likewise. After three years of reading this group, it is apparent to me
who is credible and who is not.

Alas, without a moderated group, who really knows who is on first? ;-)

Greg Esres wrote:

you seem to imply that you might have some extraordinary level of
knowledge about all this stuff. Are you a "terpster" as well?

I did not mean to make that implication. Notice that I did not
comment on how the OP should comply with the ODP.

Before I accept any piece of technical information as "fact", I will
cross-check it to the best of my ability with authoritative sources.
Until I do, it's "opinion."

Tim's comments have consistently been in line with these authoritative
sources, so I'm inclined to grant him a higher credibility than other
posters on this subject.

Thank you. I am for real, but there is no reason for anyone to accept
that in this medium. Plus, I am always worried about our controller
friend from Green Bay (Sunskit) finding any kink in the armour to launch
an attack. ;-)

wrote:

On Sun, 24 Apr 2005 18:20:41 -0700, wrote:



wrote:

On Sun, 24 Apr 2005 19:05:36 GMT, Greg Esres
wrote:

What sort of climb gradient you end up with is due to chance.

Maybe in YOUR aviating world.

Climb gradients, especially when flying an obstacle departure
procedure in IMC, are WAY too important to leave to chance. Your
life may very well depend on them.

Unless you have a bird with great climb performance, it all becomes a
crap shoot of sorts.

Baloney.

Especially these days when ground speed is readily available from GPS
units, no climb gradient need be left to chance.

If for some remote reason, one cannot be certain that his climb
gradient exceeds the requirement of an IMC obstacle departure, he
ought to stay on the ground until the weather lifts.

You say baloney, yet you essentially agree with me in your second
paragraph. If, for example, a ODP at an airport with a density altitude
at departure time of 4,000 feet, msl, and a required climb gradient of 280
feet per mile to 7,500, you determine with "certainty" that your bird can
do 300 feet per mile. Further, you cannot possibly determine the wind
direction and velocity with certainty in advance.

You depart with your great GPS, and leaving 6,000 find out that your
average gradient thus far has been 230 feet per mile and getting worse.
What is your certainty at that point? Beats me. The controlling obstacle
may be to the side of the containment area, or it may be a granite
ridge-line all the way across the containment area. If you try to do a
180 you are now between a rock and a hard place. ;-)

If, for example, a ODP at an airport with a density altitude
at departure time of 4,000 feet, msl, and a required climb gradient of 280
feet per mile to 7,500, you determine with "certainty" that your bird can
do 300 feet per mile. Further, you cannot possibly determine the wind
direction and velocity with certainty in advance.


I would not depart - not enough margin of safety for me.

wrote:

On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 05:12:22 -0700, wrote:



wrote:

On Sun, 24 Apr 2005 18:20:41 -0700, wrote:



wrote:

On Sun, 24 Apr 2005 19:05:36 GMT, Greg Esres
wrote:

What sort of climb gradient you end up with is due to chance.

Maybe in YOUR aviating world.

Climb gradients, especially when flying an obstacle departure
procedure in IMC, are WAY too important to leave to chance. Your
life may very well depend on them.

Unless you have a bird with great climb performance, it all becomes a
crap shoot of sorts.

Baloney.

Especially these days when ground speed is readily available from GPS
units, no climb gradient need be left to chance.

If for some remote reason, one cannot be certain that his climb
gradient exceeds the requirement of an IMC obstacle departure, he
ought to stay on the ground until the weather lifts.

You say baloney, yet you essentially agree with me in your second
paragraph. If, for example, a ODP at an airport with a density altitude
at departure time of 4,000 feet, msl, and a required climb gradient of 280
feet per mile to 7,500, you determine with "certainty" that your bird can
do 300 feet per mile. Further, you cannot possibly determine the wind
direction and velocity with certainty in advance.

Let me stop you right here.

It's you who will be departing with a certain climb gradient of 300
fpnm with a required gradient of 280 fpnm.

I won't be there.

Oh, I wouldn't either, trust me. But, then again, I haven't done that stuff in
non-Part 25 birds for very many years.