ILS critical area when the tower is closed?

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:




Well, their "need" to use couplers and perhaps autoland systems in good
weather does not give them priority over other users.


Did someone in this thread suggest there was any kind of priority issue
in the use of approach couplers or autoland systems?

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

"Peter R." wrote in message
...

Is this a FAR requirement or airline's operational procedural requirement?



Neither.


91.129 requires that the ILS be followed at a Class D airport. It does
not require that the full procedure be flown. If cleared for a visual
to an ILS runway, for example, the 121 crew must have the ILS tuned and
identified and use it once lined up with the runway.

Further, this 91.129 requirement is included in every carrier's flight
operations policy manual (a POI-approved document) to be applied for any
runway end with an operating ILS, Class D or not.

wrong. There might be "need" to do autolanding for 3 month (?)
currency.
It's not a problem because the pilots can see. The need for currency
doesn't alter the weather.

correct but there is a need to do an autoland. It is not
*required* since the weather is good enough but the
need is still there.

I hear this often at night for jets going into SFO.
SFO has a full-time tower.

correct but I was referring to jets asking to do a
CAT III approach for currency even though it is VFR.

Gerald

KP wrote:

Man, I hate to side with McNicholl but...

wrote in message news:cjlgf.4216$pF.687@fed1read04...

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

wrote in message news:CX9gf.1261$pF.1153@fed1read04...


It's a problem during a coupled approach especially if the pilot is
planning to do an autoland.



It's not a problem if the weather is good.



Not so, Steve. It can cause control problems and certainly adversely
affect an autoland. That is why your handbook contains a caveat about
such approaches.

Approach couplers and autoland systems are weather independent.~


The only "caveat" in the .65 regarding coupled or autoland ILS approaches is
in 3-7-5b. This simply requires an advisory to aircraft of "ILS/MLS
CRITICAL AREA NOT PROTECTED" when the weather is at or above 800-2.

So, if the weather is good (or good enough) all the pilot executing a
coupled or autoland gets is a warning (ie, a reminder not to trust the
electrons too much). For all practical purposes the ILS critical areas are
not in play. Nobody gets held at the instrument hold lines. In other
words, it's not a problem if the weather is good.

You're a bit out of context. Here is the context:

b. Air carriers commonly conduct "coupled" or "autoland" operations to
satisfy maintenance, training, or reliability program requirements.
Promptly issue an advisory if the critical area will not be protected
when an arriving aircraft advises that a "coupled," "CATIII,"
"autoland," or similar type approach will be conducted and the weather
is reported ceiling of 800 feet or more, and the visibility is 2 miles
or more.

When the weather is good, the crew is required to advise the tower when
they intend to do an autoland or even a non-autoland coupled approach.
If the advisory you mentioned is NOT issued then the crew is trained to
expect that the tower is protecting the critical areas.

The language used to be stronger, in that ATC was required to protect
the critical areas when the crew made such an announcement in good
weather. Apparently, that was too burdensome.

Nonetheless, most of the time when the crew announces its intent to do
an autoland/coupled approach in good weather, the tower does not issue
that alert, thus the crew can expect the ILS to perform without
interference.

De-creeping the thread a bit: the thread is about an airport without a
tower or a closed tower. A savvy air carrier crew would give serious
pause to considering a good-weather autoland at such an airport.

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
wrote in message news:cjlgf.4216$pF.687@fed1read04...

Not so, Steve. It can cause control problems and certainly adversely
affect an autoland. That is why your handbook contains a caveat about
such approaches.

Approach couplers and autoland systems are weather independent.~



You're mistaken. There's no need for approach couplers and autoland systems
when the weather is good. It's not a problem because the pilots can see.


FAA 7110.65
3-7-5. PRECISION APPROACH CRITICAL AREA

b. Air carriers commonly conduct "coupled" or "autoland" operations to
satisfy maintenance, training, or reliability program requirements.
Promptly issue an advisory if the critical area will not be protected
when an arriving aircraft advises that a "coupled," "CATIII,"
"autoland," or similar type approach will be conducted and the weather
is reported ceiling of 800 feet or more, and the visibility is 2 miles
or more.

JPH

wrote in message news:l6wgf.4657$pF.1345@fed1read04...

Did someone in this thread suggest there was any kind of priority issue in
the use of approach couplers or autoland systems?


Yes.

"Gerald Sylvester" wrote in message
. net...

correct but there is a need to do an autoland. It is not
*required* since the weather is good enough but the
need is still there.


Don't be silly. There's clearly no need to do an autoland in good weather.



correct but I was referring to jets asking to do a
CAT III approach for currency even though it is VFR.


We're talking about ILS critical areas when the tower is closed.

wrote in message news:Sjwgf.4659$pF.917@fed1read04...

You're a bit out of context. Here is the context:

b. Air carriers commonly conduct "coupled" or "autoland" operations to
satisfy maintenance, training, or reliability program requirements.
Promptly issue an advisory if the critical area will not be protected when
an arriving aircraft advises that a "coupled," "CATIII," "autoland," or
similar type approach will be conducted and the weather is reported
ceiling of 800 feet or more, and the visibility is 2 miles or more.

When the weather is good, the crew is required to advise the tower when
they intend to do an autoland or even a non-autoland coupled approach. If
the advisory you mentioned is NOT issued then the crew is trained to
expect that the tower is protecting the critical areas.


You're more than a bit out of context. There is no tower to advise as we're
talking about ILS critical areas when the tower is closed.

"JPH" wrote in message
news:V8xgf.38889$4n5.27102@dukeread01...

FAA 7110.65
3-7-5. PRECISION APPROACH CRITICAL AREA

b. Air carriers commonly conduct "coupled" or "autoland" operations to
satisfy maintenance, training, or reliability program requirements.
Promptly issue an advisory if the critical area will not be protected when
an arriving aircraft advises that a "coupled," "CATIII," "autoland," or
similar type approach will be conducted and the weather is reported
ceiling of 800 feet or more, and the visibility is 2 miles or more.


That can only be done when the tower is open, we're talking about ILS
critical areas when the tower is closed.

wrote in message news:rbwgf.4658$pF.1342@fed1read04...

91.129 requires that the ILS be followed at a Class D airport. It does
not require that the full procedure be flown. If cleared for a visual to
an ILS runway, for example, the 121 crew must have the ILS tuned and
identified and use it once lined up with the runway.


The requirement in FAR 91.129 is that a large or turbine-powered airplane
approaching to land on a runway served by an ILS must fly at an altitude at
or above the glide slope. The claim by Newps was; "The airlines will always
fly the ILS if there is one up and running. They are required to."