Does everyone teach this way?

At 01:12 21 October 2003, Dancebert wrote:
On 20 Oct 2003 15:43:03 -0700,
(Mike Stramba)
wrote:

What part of the world are you in? (RAS/Usenet is
world wide !)
Los Angeles

Can you give some examples of 'I'll tell you what
to do'
instructions that you've received ?
Slips, stalls, turning stalls, stalls with spoilers,
boxing the wake,
flying at minimum sink, 60 degree bank turns, speed
control, etc.


If you have been succesful with thermalling as a HG
pilot, my suggestion is to get comfortable with that
in the sailplane. The tow and landings will come with
time. Before you fry yourself on tow-give it to the
instructor. Then center and thermal up in good lift-take
a few deep breaths and continue to stalls and steep
turns. If you have been succesful as a HG pilot, sailplanes
will come to you, especially once you figure out what
to do with your feet.



What aspects of flying are you having difficulty with
(or your
instructors think you're having difficulty with)?

Speed control. Boxing the wake when it's turbulant.
Approaches and
landings characterized by sufficient brain overloaded
that I fail to
pay attention to something I should be attending to.
Attending to
variometer while on tow, and if I do, remembering two
minutes later
where the lift was. Consistently flying ahead of the
plane.

I agree... that has the side effect of making every flight seem like an exam
instead of a lesson. You ask a question, and instead of an answer or a hint,
you get "What do you think?" I understand that the instructor's job is to
simultaneously instruct and assess, but sometimes we just need an answer to
the question. Maybe the test-to-question ratio should go up dramatically as
you approach solo and flight test, but early on we need to be able to ask
and get answers.

That's why I've been doing some practice on a flight simulator program,
although I realize there are many drawbacks to it. It's a way to get some
practice time alone, to figure some of that stuff out.

You will learn more & better what you figure out on your own, than
what somebody tells you.
...

That's what it seems like they're doing. I have no doubt it works,
but there are times when I think it would be so much easier to not
have to figure it out on my own. But I also acknowledge I'm a newbie
who's just past the completely cluless stage.

What aspects of flying are you having difficulty with (or your
instructors think you're having difficulty with)?

... Approaches and
landings characterized by sufficient brain overloaded that I fail to
pay attention to something I should be attending to.

It's called "pilot workload" and it definitely takes time to deal with. One
by one, those many things start to take less of your full attention, so the
pieces fit together better. I think it's part of the instructor's job to
introduce them one at a time, but when you switch instructors weekly (as you
and I do), it's hard for them to know what you've integrated and what is
still new to you. At this stage in my learning I'm now able to analyze which
parts of approach and landing have recently caused overload. I debrief
myself at the end of the day and make some notes, and I try to review those
before the next day's lesson so that they don't catch me by surprise.

I couldn't get a straight answer as to what sort of stick and/or
rudder movement was needed to produce a specific desired result, so I
bought a simulator, a stick and some pedals. It helped a lot at the
very first, haven't used it much since then.

Now, I see that they wanted me to discover the answer through trial
and error. I jsut did it at my PC.

On Tue, 21 Oct 2003 04:51:02 GMT, "Roger Worden"
wrote:
....
That's why I've been doing some practice on a flight simulator program,
although I realize there are many drawbacks to it. It's a way to get some
practice time alone, to figure some of that stuff out.
....

Dancebert writes
Does everbody teach soaring the same way? If so, excuse me while I
step outside and scream.

I don't think so. And an airfield is a great place to scream. Lots of
open space. So go ahead and vent

I've had 24 flights with 4 different instructors at two different
schools.

So you're a little ahead of me in the flights department (Much more if
you take into consideration your HG experience). 10 flights, 4 different
instructors. My first 'trial' lesson was at a different club over in
Wales, which prompted me to join my local club, the rest have been here.

I haven't been anything but terribly impressed. Both by the existing
club members and by all of the instructors I've have the privilege of
flying with. All of them, to a man, remind me of my Father in the way
that they teach. Dad's an ex-college lecturer now driving instructor,
and has the most laid back, relaxed, coaching attitude towards his
students that you can imagine.

The "rotation" of instructors in my case is unavoidable. Instruction in
the UK is, for the most part (at least as I understand it) done at the
club level on a voluntary, unpaid basis. Were I to only want to fly with
a specific instructor, my flying time would be cut to a quarter waiting
for him/her to come back around on the duty roster. Besides, I
personally find that the subtle differences in teaching technique
between the different instructors quite interesting, and sometimes
informative.

I've got to admit, each time I've "picked up" a new instructor, it's
been with some trepidation. Aside from anything else, having a complete
stranger in the back seat is a bit unnerving, especially when they're an
unknown quantity. I'm more used to things being the other way around.
But each time that's gone, almost from the moment we release from launch
and they hand over control.

(I switched schools quickly after realizing that there are some
places where humans were not meant to be in August) The instruction
mode all four used I describe is "I'll tell you what to do but I'm not
going to tell you how to do it". After I screw up a few times, figure
out enough of what happened to ask an intelligent question, they will
tell me how to do it.

I'm pretty certain it's been a combination of both, for me. For the most
part, especially in the early stages, they were at especial pains to
inform me upfront of anything critical to my (and their) safety, to make
sure I knew up front what was coming, what was going on and what was
expected of me. They were quick to check if I had any questions and
answer them if I did, but at the same time, there was clearly an
intentional effort on their part not to overload me with information.

They were also very calm in their correction. For example, the other
Wednesday I surprised my instructor by forgetting to look out in the
direction of a left turn before I rolled into it. There was this pause,
and then in a somewhat laconic, utterly laid back tone of voice he
remarked with words to the effect that it was "interesting" to "note"
that I hadn't looked out. The combination of embarrassment and my own
frustration at making myself look bad was a much more effective teaching
instrument than any harsher rebuke or chastisement could have been.
Needless to say, I haven't made that mistake again. Yet.

By the same token, since I started I've been busily devouring every bit
of written information on the subject that I can lay my hands on, so
most of the principle of what I'm running into has at least that vague,
once read not yet experienced familiarity.

There is a specific syllabus that all students (and thus instructors) at
the club follow, and a card to track progress. My last few flights the
emphasis seems to have changed. Anything new, the instructors quiz me
first on whether I've come across it before, then if I say yes, they ask
me to talk them through it. Which is good, because when I get it wrong
(for example, last Saturday one of the things was on how to trim out the
flight - I knew the effects of the trimming lever, had done it the week
before, and thought I could guess the procedure for doing it again, even
though I couldn't remember it - I was wrong, and got things backwards) I
then get talked through the correct procedure which fixes it better in
my mind than simply being told in the first place.

Then again, I am something of a tactile, inquisitive student. I like to
know ahead the things that I don't yet know (thus the reading - I'm
something of a compulsive/obsessive information magpie) and then like to
experience the thing first hand for myself and relate the actual fact to
my own (often mistaken) preconceptions.

For example, my first flight was (in contrast to those since) an
aerotow. When we reached the release point, the instructor just pulled
the release and then afterwards apologised (with a quiet grin on his
face put there by my open-mouthed, gaping reaction) for not forewarning
me of what was actually going to happen as a result.

But actually, given the choice, that's exactly the way I would have had
it. The sudden rush, exhilaration and surprise of going from tow speed
down to about 30kts (in the open cockpit of an old 1940's T-21) in a few
brief seconds... The bang and thump, followed by the sensation of
falling for a moment and then suddenly just hanging there in the air
above the Welsh mountains (I'll swear I could actually feel the wind
pushing from behind on the back of my neck - an illusion I suspect, but
convincing all the same). The sensation of absolute freedom ... I
suspect that memory is going to stay with me forever, and I can't help
but feel that had I somehow been given warning of what to expect, it
would have diluted the experience.

But again, I digress.

What I want to know is why the bleep don't they tell me in the first
place?

I mean no disrespect, and nor would I assume that you haven't done so,
but have you expressed such a preference to your instructors up front?
We're all a little different in how we learn and the methods that suit
us best. We're equally different in how we teach. I understand that the
instruction format and arguably the methods are a little different on
this side of the Atlantic, but the one thing I've noticed as a common
thread through all of my instructors - in fact, everybody I've met in
the club - is the absolute passion that they hold for gliding, and the
pleasure that they get from passing on the benefit of their experience
on to others. That's one thing I don't believe can be different
regardless of where you are, be it LA or Gloucestershire, UK.

Anyway, not sure if any of this is any more help than a mere exchange of
battle-scars, but I wish you the very best of luck in finding an
instructor you can learn comfortably from.

--
Bill Gribble

/----------------------------------\
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Dancebert dancebert @ yahoo R E MOVE .com wrote
* First flight. Told moments before tow started that I'd be operating
the rudder. No instruction as to what the foot pedals did, or which
one to push to turn the desired direction.

I have to ask - did you do ANY reading prior to flight? Personally, I
don't like to take on a student who hasn't passed the written, not
because passing the written is necessary for starting training (it's
not) but because it's proof that the student is serious and has done
his homework. If you were looking to simply get a feel for it before
deciding to dive in, no problem - but then don't be surprised if you
don't get maximum learning value from that trial flight.

* Early flight: I'm feeling the controls as the instructor did the
turns to base and final. He then tells me to land it. Land it where?
What's my aim point? Hold off as long as possible or fly it into the
ground? Once I'm on the ground do I use aileron or rudder to keep it
pointed in the direction I want it to go, or do I use both? Not a
word. ( I didn't get the answers to any of those until I asked
specific questions. )

More than likely, a lot of this happened because you were already a HG
pilot, and so your instructor assumed you would have done your
homework. Frankly, I would have assumed the same.

* Recent flight: As with most flights at this gliderport, the wind was
cross. Started with too much rudder and roll into the wind.
Attempted to correct for it and quickly got into PIO from which I had
to be rescued. Asked question afterwards and was told at slow speed,
control movements must be large and quick and immediately canceled.
Used that on my susbequent 3 flights and found it took care of my
problems with control that happend the first second or two after the
front skid lifts off the runway.

I guess I'm a little surprised here. This is a recent flight, and
you're up to 24 flights now. Is it still a mystery to you that at low
speed, control effectiveness is low and thus large control deflections
are required to accomplish anything? Is it still a surprise that as
the glider accelerates, the controls become effective very quickly -
so holding the large control deflection is not the hot tip?

Is it still a mystery that rudder controls yaw but ailerons control
roll - so on the ground steering is with rudder but wings are kept
level with aileron?

* Approaches on all flights: How do I judge if I'm too high or too
low? If I'm a little high do I slip or use spoilers or both? If I'm
way high do I slip or use spoilers or both?

OK, now I'm REALLY confused. How did you judge altitude on approach
in a HG? I've flown airplanes, gliders, and parachutes - and with all
of them, the method is exactly the same. Only the controls are
different.

Of course, I've received instruction before attempting most manuevers.
For example, the back seat guy describes how to do a turning stall,
does one with me shadowing on the controls and then I get to do it.
No problemo. Seems like that is the method for the easy stuff. It's
the harder stuff, e.g. all my ranting about landing above, where
instruction is lacking. Shoot, I don't know how many gray hairs I
generated while flopping around on tow before I was told not to fly
coordinated on tow. Wouldn't it have been a whole lot easier to tell
me that up front? I don't get it.

Honestly, I think I understand your problem. Assuming you have been
doing your reading, you clearly have a problem with being able to
correlate the book and ground stuff (as well as your prior HG
experience) with what you need to do in the glider. All the things
you complain you were not told are things that I would expect to be
obvious to someone who read even the most elementary text on
aerodynamics (the section in the FAA's Airplane or Glider Flying
Handbook is fine) and the SFM, and had flown anything. That doesn't
mean you're stupid or a bad person because these things are not
obvious to you, but it does mean that you're going to surprise
instructors. You sure would have surprised me. I expect EVERYONE who
has an interest in flying to know what the rudder pedals do. I expect
everyone who has read the SFM chapter on aerotowing to know that you
control lateral position with rudder and bank angle with airlerons,
and don't really worry about being coordinated.

I think the real solution for you would be to read a text on whatever
flight maneuvers you expect to be learning next, and to discuss
anything that is not obvious with your instructor before you get in
the glider.

Michael

"Bill Gribble" wrote in
message .. .
Dancebert writes
Does everbody teach soaring the same way? If so, excuse me while I
step outside and scream.

snip

I haven't been anything but terribly impressed. Both by the existing
club members and by all of the instructors I've have the privilege of
flying with. All of them, to a man, remind me of my Father in the way
that they teach. Dad's an ex-college lecturer now driving instructor,
and has the most laid back, relaxed, coaching attitude towards his
students that you can imagine.

The "rotation" of instructors in my case is unavoidable. Instruction in
the UK is, for the most part (at least as I understand it) done at the
club level on a voluntary, unpaid basis. Were I to only want to fly with
a specific instructor, my flying time would be cut to a quarter waiting
for him/her to come back around on the duty roster. Besides, I
personally find that the subtle differences in teaching technique
between the different instructors quite interesting, and sometimes
informative.

I've got to admit, each time I've "picked up" a new instructor, it's
been with some trepidation. Aside from anything else, having a complete
stranger in the back seat is a bit unnerving, especially when they're an
unknown quantity. I'm more used to things being the other way around.
But each time that's gone, almost from the moment we release from launch
and they hand over control.

snip
The difference being Dancebert is flying in the US where there is no
national syllabus nor centralized instructor training, per se, and Bill
Gribble is flying in the UK where both are in use.

Frank Whiteley

Dancebert dancebert @ yahoo R E MOVE .com wrote in message . ..
On 20 Oct 2003 15:39:23 -0700, (Buck Wild) wrote:
....
I never "taught anyone to fly", but I have guided many students safely
while they learned it on their own, so to speak. That was my job.
...
You will learn more & better what you figure out on your own, than
what somebody tells you.
...

That's what it seems like they're doing. I have no doubt it works,
but there are times when I think it would be so much easier to not
have to figure it out on my own. But I also acknowledge I'm a newbie
who's just past the completely cluless stage.

Hmmm... The 'figure it out on your own' part often leads to
adrenalin surges and occasionally by the instructor making
corrections. I can see there is value in the instructor seeing how
the student reacts when things don't go as expected or start to get
out of hand. Does he systematically try to regain control? Does he
flail and wimper? Does he freeze? Maybe everything is going as
planned.

To
Having said all that, and not knowing the particulars, maybe you just
found crummy instructors?
Not very likely. The first place I tried came recommened to me by a
former national champion and also by someone who is an SHA Officer.

Or maybe your a crummy student? (nothing personal)
Entirely possible.


I should add that it's not as simple as folding your arms in the back
seat & letting the poor guy figure everything out on his own. This
method is just one in my bag of tricks that I use when it's
appropriate. A good instructor knows when to add more instruction, &
when to kick back. This was 10 times more difficult for hang gliding
than for sailplanes, since once a student launces a hang glider, he's
solo every flight. You couldn't add more instruction until they land,
and you can't have them crashing, and you saying "figure it out, try
it again".
one of the most valuable things I've learned is that everyone learns a
little differently, and the real trick (for the instructor) is when a
student gets stuck on something, and your instruction isn't working,
you need to change your instruction method to adapt to the individual,
and figure out what it is that the student needs for that particular
person to "get it".
I myself have been "tricked" into learning by a wize & wiley sage on
occasion. Seems I learn best when I don't know Im getting a "lesson",
and Im not real good with "book" learning. Im the opposite type, who
might tell an instructor to shut up & let me figure it out. At least
until I master a certain plateau and need some guidance to progress to
the next level.
Im not sure if any of this helps, I just know that showing isn't
teaching, and copying isn't learning. Like I said, better to find a
teacher you like & get along with, and filter for usefull information,
than a great teacher that you can't understand.
Teaching was the hardest I've ever worked for the least amount of
cash, though I can go flying & always find people who took their first
flight with me who are highly skilled pilots now. A reward that keeps
on giving.
Good luck with the lessons.
-Dan
Stratus V
109 Aeros Stealth Comp

In order to grow, babies need:

- Someone who loves them, and helps them quickly when they cry

- Someone who gets to know them

- Someone to keep them safe and comfortable

- Chances to move about and do new things



(Quote from California Children and Families Commission Pamphlet
"You Child's Learning Starts Early")


When it comes to learning to fly, I'm just a big baby ;-P

No, everyone does not teach that way. I can't imagine a good instructor who
does. In fact such techniques are in direct conflict with how adult
learners learn. They also conflict with the FAA's instruction principles.
While can argue with the specific techniques the FAA recommends, they are
proven sound. Simply stated... 1 - instructor tells, instructor does; 2 -
student tells, instructor does; 3 - student tell, student does; 4 - student
does, instructor evaluates. While there are many variations that work well,
your experience does not fit into any accepted or effective teaching
technique.


"Dancebert" wrote in message
om...
Does everbody teach soaring the same way? If so, excuse me while I
step outside and scream.

I've had 24 flights with 4 different instructors at two different
schools. (I switched schools quickly after realizing that there are
some places where humans were not meant to be in August) The
instruction mode all four used I describe is "I'll tell you what to do
but I'm not going to tell you how to do it". After I screw up a few
times, figure out enough of what happened to ask an intelligent
question, they will tell me how to do it. What I want to know is why
the bleep don't they tell me in the first place?

I understand aviation is 100 years old and that instruction techniques
have had more than enough time to be refined, and I have no doubt that
the instruction mode I've encountered is the most successful at
turning the most people into pilots. I also know there are other
modes of learning, like 1) Be told and then do, 2) Be shown and then
do, 3) Do and correct or be corrected (aka Trial and Error), 4) Some
mixture of 1-3. I'm sure there are others, but it's been too long
since I took Psych 101.

So, is learning to fly always in the mode I've encountered? Will it
do any good to convince my instructor that I respond best to other
modes of learning?