Does everyone teach this way?

Does everbody teach soaring the same way? If so, excuse me while I
step outside and scream.

I've had 24 flights with 4 different instructors at two different
schools. (I switched schools quickly after realizing that there are
some places where humans were not meant to be in August) The
instruction mode all four used I describe is "I'll tell you what to do
but I'm not going to tell you how to do it". After I screw up a few
times, figure out enough of what happened to ask an intelligent
question, they will tell me how to do it. What I want to know is why
the bleep don't they tell me in the first place?

I understand aviation is 100 years old and that instruction techniques
have had more than enough time to be refined, and I have no doubt that
the instruction mode I've encountered is the most successful at
turning the most people into pilots. I also know there are other
modes of learning, like 1) Be told and then do, 2) Be shown and then
do, 3) Do and correct or be corrected (aka Trial and Error), 4) Some
mixture of 1-3. I'm sure there are others, but it's been too long
since I took Psych 101.

So, is learning to fly always in the mode I've encountered? Will it
do any good to convince my instructor that I respond best to other
modes of learning?

(Dancebert) wrote in message
So, is learning to fly always in the mode I've encountered? Will it
do any good to convince my instructor that I respond best to other
modes of learning?

It would be beneficial to know what make and model glider you are flying.
And also if you had a similar problem with your instructors when you
were learning to fly hang gliders?

(Dancebert) wrote in message . com...
Does everbody teach soaring the same way? If so, excuse me while I
step outside and scream.

I've had 24 flights with 4 different instructors at two different
schools. (I switched schools quickly after realizing that there are
some places where humans were not meant to be in August) The
instruction mode all four used I describe is "I'll tell you what to do
but I'm not going to tell you how to do it". After I screw up a few
times, figure out enough of what happened to ask an intelligent
question, they will tell me how to do it. What I want to know is why
the bleep don't they tell me in the first place?

I cannot speak for other instructors, but I remember using a similar
method for certain situations. A hundred or so years ago when I taught
hang gliding, and I had first day students, I would put the bagged
glider on the ground, and tell the 4 or 5 of them, "go ahead, set it
up". They would say, "how"? I would say, "figure it out". The results
were always comical, but eventually they would learn about all the
parts, break the ice between themselves with teamwork, and get it set
up. Sometimes upside down. Rather than me saying "put this here", they
had to examine the whole contraption and it's parts, and they would
learn a great deal more than if I showed them.
You can tell a good instructor by what he doesn't tell you sometimes.
I never "taught anyone to fly", but I have guided many students safely
while they learned it on their own, so to speak. That was my job. To
keep you alive & guide you while you learn. One power-to-glider
transition pilot, on his first out of control attempt at aerotow said,
" I can't believe it's so hard, I read the book"!
You will learn more & better what you figure out on your own, than
what somebody tells you.
Having said all that, and not knowing the particulars, maybe you just
found crummy instructors? Or maybe your a crummy student? (nothing
personal)
Find the instructor you get along with best, & schedual with him/her
exclusively, even if you have to miss a few days. Jumping around to
different instructors can easily double your time-to-solo. And stick
with it, it's definatly worth it.
-Dan

What part of the world are you in? (RAS/Usenet is world wide !)

Can you give some examples of "I'll tell you what to do"
instructions that you've received ?

What aspects of flying are you having difficulty with (or your
instructors think you're having difficulty with)?

2) Be shown and then do,

That is how I was taught both power and gliding. Most subjects should
also be briefed on the *ground* before getting up into the air.

There is a ton of info on aviation on the 'net. For "primary" flight
control, you can use most of power aircraft theory, i.e. "flying by
attitude / reference to the horizon", navigation, aerodynamics.

Here's one great site to start with http://www.av8n.com/how/

Mike

Sounds like you've had some bad luck. I suggest the following: post to
the group where you live and what you consider a reasonable trip to
the gliderport (eg, 1 hour each way). Ask that responders email you
directly rather than posting to the news group. My guess is you'll get
some suggestions on both location and individuals. By the way, a good
teacher follows a syllabus and starts and ends each training flight
with some ground school. You might also consider taking a week's
vacation to finish up at a reputable school. I completed my pre solo
training over two weekends at Ridge Soaring in PA way back when. You
don't want to know what I payed!

OC


(Dancebert) wrote in message . com...
Does everbody teach soaring the same way? If so, excuse me while I
step outside and scream.

I've had 24 flights with 4 different instructors at two different
schools. (I switched schools quickly after realizing that there are
some places where humans were not meant to be in August) The
instruction mode all four used I describe is "I'll tell you what to do
but I'm not going to tell you how to do it". After I screw up a few
times, figure out enough of what happened to ask an intelligent
question, they will tell me how to do it. What I want to know is why
the bleep don't they tell me in the first place?

I understand aviation is 100 years old and that instruction techniques
have had more than enough time to be refined, and I have no doubt that
the instruction mode I've encountered is the most successful at
turning the most people into pilots. I also know there are other
modes of learning, like 1) Be told and then do, 2) Be shown and then
do, 3) Do and correct or be corrected (aka Trial and Error), 4) Some
mixture of 1-3. I'm sure there are others, but it's been too long
since I took Psych 101.

So, is learning to fly always in the mode I've encountered? Will it
do any good to convince my instructor that I respond best to other
modes of learning?

On Mon, 20 Oct 2003 14:11:09 -0400, Todd Pattist
wrote:

I'd be interested in a few specific examples of what you
encountered and how you think it should have been done. For

Examples:
* First flight. Told moments before tow started that I'd be operating
the rudder. No instruction as to what the foot pedals did, or which
one to push to turn the desired direction.

* Early flight: I'm feeling the controls as the instructor did the
turns to base and final. He then tells me to land it. Land it where?
What's my aim point? Hold off as long as possible or fly it into the
ground? Once I'm on the ground do I use aileron or rudder to keep it
pointed in the direction I want it to go, or do I use both? Not a
word. ( I didn't get the answers to any of those until I asked
specific questions. )

* Recent flight: As with most flights at this gliderport, the wind was
cross. Started with too much rudder and roll into the wind.
Attempted to correct for it and quickly got into PIO from which I had
to be rescued. Asked question afterwards and was told at slow speed,
control movements must be large and quick and immediately canceled.
Used that on my susbequent 3 flights and found it took care of my
problems with control that happend the first second or two after the
front skid lifts off the runway.

* Approaches on all flights: How do I judge if I'm too high or too
low? If I'm a little high do I slip or use spoilers or both? If I'm
way high do I slip or use spoilers or both?

There's more but that's a start.

Of course, I've received instruction before attempting most manuevers.
For example, the back seat guy describes how to do a turning stall,
does one with me shadowing on the controls and then I get to do it.
No problemo. Seems like that is the method for the easy stuff. It's
the harder stuff, e.g. all my ranting about landing above, where
instruction is lacking. Shoot, I don't know how many gray hairs I
generated while flopping around on tow before I was told not to fly
coordinated on tow. Wouldn't it have been a whole lot easier to tell
me that up front? I don't get it.

Schweizer 2-33

No problems with my HG instructors of any sort. Both the manuals and
instruction was clear on the step by step process of what I was trying
to do.


On 20 Oct 2003 14:50:08 -0700, (Soarin) wrote:

(Dancebert) wrote in message
So, is learning to fly always in the mode I've encountered? Will it
do any good to convince my instructor that I respond best to other
modes of learning?

It would be beneficial to know what make and model glider you are flying.
And also if you had a similar problem with your instructors when you
were learning to fly hang gliders?

On 20 Oct 2003 15:39:23 -0700, (Buck Wild) wrote:
.....
I never "taught anyone to fly", but I have guided many students safely
while they learned it on their own, so to speak. That was my job.
....
You will learn more & better what you figure out on your own, than
what somebody tells you.
....

That's what it seems like they're doing. I have no doubt it works,
but there are times when I think it would be so much easier to not
have to figure it out on my own. But I also acknowledge I'm a newbie
who's just past the completely cluless stage.

Hmmm... The 'figure it out on your own' part often leads to
adrenalin surges and occasionally by the instructor making
corrections. I can see there is value in the instructor seeing how
the student reacts when things don't go as expected or start to get
out of hand. Does he systematically try to regain control? Does he
flail and wimper? Does he freeze? Maybe everything is going as
planned.

To
Having said all that, and not knowing the particulars, maybe you just
found crummy instructors?
Not very likely. The first place I tried came recommened to me by a
former national champion and also by someone who is an SHA Officer.

Or maybe your a crummy student? (nothing personal)
Entirely possible.

On 20 Oct 2003 15:43:03 -0700, (Mike Stramba)
wrote:

What part of the world are you in? (RAS/Usenet is world wide !)
Los Angeles

Can you give some examples of "I'll tell you what to do"
instructions that you've received ?
Slips, stalls, turning stalls, stalls with spoilers, boxing the wake,
flying at minimum sink, 60 degree bank turns, speed control, etc.


What aspects of flying are you having difficulty with (or your
instructors think you're having difficulty with)?

Speed control. Boxing the wake when it's turbulant. Approaches and
landings characterized by sufficient brain overloaded that I fail to
pay attention to something I should be attending to. Attending to
variometer while on tow, and if I do, remembering two minutes later
where the lift was. Consistently flying ahead of the plane.

In article ,
Dancebert dancebert @ yahoo R E MOVE .com wrote:

On Mon, 20 Oct 2003 14:11:09 -0400, Todd Pattist
wrote:

I'd be interested in a few specific examples of what you
encountered and how you think it should have been done. For

Examples:
* First flight. Told moments before tow started that I'd be operating
the rudder. No instruction as to what the foot pedals did, or which
one to push to turn the desired direction.

* Early flight: I'm feeling the controls as the instructor did the
turns to base and final. He then tells me to land it. Land it where?
What's my aim point? Hold off as long as possible or fly it into the
ground? Once I'm on the ground do I use aileron or rudder to keep it
pointed in the direction I want it to go, or do I use both? Not a
word. ( I didn't get the answers to any of those until I asked
specific questions. )

Maybe this is just me, but my suspicion is that you come across as if
you know what you're doing (previous flight experience and all that) so
they are figuring that you'll do something reasonable.

What's your aim point? If you know enough to know what an "aim point"
is, then why can't you just pick one for yourself? Land it where?
Somewhere safe. Hold off as long as possible or fly it into the
ground? Unless your runway is 2 seconds long at flying speed and you've
got an arrester hook, hold it off until it won't fly any more.


* Approaches on all flights: How do I judge if I'm too high or too
low? If I'm a little high do I slip or use spoilers or both? If I'm
way high do I slip or use spoilers or both?

If your instructor lets you get so high that full spoilers won't bring
you down then he should be shot. Well, unless you're also far enough
back that you can S-turn or circle or whatever.

You'll come to learn what is a good approach angle. Until then, make
your turn to final far enough out (and high enough) that you've got
plenty of time to play with the controls and see what happens. When I
take friends for a ride I usually demo this. I turn final with no
spoilers: "See how we'd fly right past the airfield?". Open full
spoilers, adjust pitch to maintain speed: "See how we'd now reach the
ground waaay short of the airfield?" Close spoilers halfway: "That
looks about right ... you can see we're going to make it to the
airfield, but not too far past the fence. We might not have an engine,
but we can land on any spot we choose to".

If your instructor won't let you do that sort of experimentation then I
think that's sad. He's there to know the limits and stop you killing
yourself and to help you learn, not to make sure that every single
approach you ever do is perfect by the book.



What aspects of flying are you having difficulty with (or your
instructors think you're having difficulty with)?

Speed control. Boxing the wake when it's turbulant. Approaches and
landings characterized by sufficient brain overloaded that I fail to
pay attention to something I should be attending to. Attending to
variometer while on tow, and if I do, remembering two minutes later
where the lift was. Consistently flying ahead of the plane.

That's why you need practise, and to take over one responsibility at a
time from the instructor.

Oh yeah, next time you notice good lift on tow, don't follow the tow
plane for another two minutes and then try to find it again. If you're
high enough to get back to the field safely then count ten seconds and
if you're still in lift pull the tow release and start circling.
Probably better to warn the instructor first though :-)

-- Bruce