Are off-airport landouts common and/or dangerous?

On Sunday, 26 May 2019 15:00:05 UTC-6, Charles Ethridge wrote:
Hi all.

First off, I was a fairly experienced CFI and Chief Flight Instructor with a great record, and am now a Commercial Glider Pilot, so I'm not a total newbie in the glider world.

I realize that my initial question may be obvious to some, but here in South Florida, we NEVER land out in fields (unless there is an emergency, of course). We only land out at one other airport, and even that is quite rare.

The question has two parts:

1. Are off-airport landouts common?

I've now heard/read two different philosophies on this. One is from Garret Willat's articles, in which he essentially says that if you are not landing out fairly often, you are not flying aggressively enough in your contests. Is he meaning landing out in unknown fields? or just at known-to-be-safe fields and airports?

The opposite philosophy I THOUGHT I heard in David Lessnick's great webinar last week was that one should ALWAYS be landing out at airports and never on roads or unknown fields....or at least have a KNOWN-TO-BE-SAFE field or airport within your glide range.

2. When landing out, are your gliders often damaged, even just a little bit?

The reason I ask is that I've been flying my glider fairly regularly for the past few years. I fly quite conservatively (compared to what I read in Soaring magazine anyway) and have NEVER damaged it, not even slightly. I am retired and not rich, and so when I think about how much it would cost to get even slight damage fixed, I hesitate to even contemplate doing cross-country flights, due to the risk of damage during landout, but more so due to the risk of my insurance company upping my premiums or canceling my policy altogether. If my glider is totaled by my insurance company, I doubt that I could afford to get another one like it, since I got a very good glider at a great price.

Tom Knauff, in his book After Solo, recommends specific and thorough landout training for the reason he states (p 122):

"During the 1987 Sports Class Nationals, more than 30% of the pilots entered in the contest, damaged their ships during off field landings!"

But as far as I know (Soaring magazine ads, webinars, this forum), no one is teaching such a course. So without confidence in landing out without ANY damage, is cross-country flying thus a rich man's sport?

Charles "Ben" Ethridge

I recall someone saying that the stats were (roughly, obviously) major damage to the glider every 100 outlandings; damage to the pilot every 500 outlandings. I'm guessing this is very region dependent.

On Sunday, May 26, 2019 at 4:00:05 PM UTC-5, Charles Ethridge wrote:
Hi all.

First off, I was a fairly experienced CFI and Chief Flight Instructor with a great record, and am now a Commercial Glider Pilot, so I'm not a total newbie in the glider world.

I realize that my initial question may be obvious to some, but here in South Florida, we NEVER land out in fields (unless there is an emergency, of course). We only land out at one other airport, and even that is quite rare.

The question has two parts:

1. Are off-airport landouts common?

I've now heard/read two different philosophies on this. One is from Garret Willat's articles, in which he essentially says that if you are not landing out fairly often, you are not flying aggressively enough in your contests. Is he meaning landing out in unknown fields? or just at known-to-be-safe fields and airports?

The opposite philosophy I THOUGHT I heard in David Lessnick's great webinar last week was that one should ALWAYS be landing out at airports and never on roads or unknown fields....or at least have a KNOWN-TO-BE-SAFE field or airport within your glide range.

2. When landing out, are your gliders often damaged, even just a little bit?

The reason I ask is that I've been flying my glider fairly regularly for the past few years. I fly quite conservatively (compared to what I read in Soaring magazine anyway) and have NEVER damaged it, not even slightly. I am retired and not rich, and so when I think about how much it would cost to get even slight damage fixed, I hesitate to even contemplate doing cross-country flights, due to the risk of damage during landout, but more so due to the risk of my insurance company upping my premiums or canceling my policy altogether. If my glider is totaled by my insurance company, I doubt that I could afford to get another one like it, since I got a very good glider at a great price.

Tom Knauff, in his book After Solo, recommends specific and thorough landout training for the reason he states (p 122):

"During the 1987 Sports Class Nationals, more than 30% of the pilots entered in the contest, damaged their ships during off field landings!"

But as far as I know (Soaring magazine ads, webinars, this forum), no one is teaching such a course. So without confidence in landing out without ANY damage, is cross-country flying thus a rich man's sport?

Charles "Ben" Ethridge

My only comment is that as you grow in soaring you will in all probability landout at some point in time. I have hand many. The old adage is "It isn't 'if' you will landout, it is 'when' will you landout". It is "common" but isn't necessarily dangerous.

Your training and studying should prepare you for this eventuality. There is Bob Wander (thin) book dedicated to the subject. You might landout at an airport (best) or a farmer's field (second best) or someplace else. Your GPS navigation device will point the way to available airports based on position, altitude, terrain, and winds aloft.

Every glider pilot has a minimum safety altitude "mind shift" below which they stop trying to thermal (as it becomes VERY difficult to do so low to the ground) and take the time left in the air to prepare to land safely with a pattern just like you were taught. My minimum altitude is around 1,000 ft AGL. After about 2,000 ft AGL I have already begun keeping an eye out for some good spots.

Best of luck in this wonderful sport.

On Monday, May 27, 2019 at 10:03:14 AM UTC-6, wrote:
snip
Landing out will not win the day, so the quote you bring up needs massaging.

Not always. My story could either make your point or dispute it.

My 1st contest day win was when I followed the contest leader over an airport in still (overcast) air on course. He was trying to get every point he could to stay in the lead. I was not in the running for a contest win, so at the appropriate point I turned around and landed at at the airport. The two leaders continued on and landed in fields, the contest was close enough that the one that did a couple extra miles won the contest. However this was the 1st year that the 25 point airport bonus was implemented and I ended up winning the day by landing at an airport. I landed there just because it was safer and more convenient, I was not aware of the airport bonus, or at least wasn't considering it when I landed there.

Brian

BTW....people still break ships landing at their local home field on decent days.... you fly the ship until things stop moving...

On Monday, May 27, 2019 at 9:30:00 AM UTC-7, Steve Koerner wrote:
Roads are to be avoided unless you have specifically surveyed some particular stretch in advance. Besides cars, problems are signs and posts and wires and berms and parallel wire fencing that can easily become deadly if you ground loop into it.

Yes - roads are the worst place to land...unless the alternatives are worse still. Careful scouting can help but won't solve every problem. For instance, there are a couple of places around Nephi, UT where there are pretty long gaps between airports and no cultivation so you are left with trackless desert (often filled with ravines and boulders - I'm told this is where they filmed "The Martian") or roads. Scouting some spots with enough width that markers and high shoulders aren't a problem still leaves you with the chance of traffic if you get flushed in the wrong spot, but it beats landing in a ravine. Many of these roads are lightly travelled - but others aren't - and you can always run into bad timing I suppose.

I would never head out over such terrain without a glide to an airport, but strong conditions can generate strong sink and you can end up running out of altitude and ideas at the same time in pretty short order.

Emergency landing spots are best not planned in the cockpit if you can help it and best not used if you can avoid it, but I get some comfort out of having at least some hip-pocket spots picked out just in case.

Know terrain where you are headed before you head there.

Andy Blackburn
9B

On Tue, 28 May 2019 13:31:15 -0700, Andy Blackburn wrote:

Know terrain where you are headed before you head there.

I've only flown once in the Great Basin and that was only local soaring
from Minden when nothing but weak thermals were on offer, but I have
driven from Denver to Lost Hills, CA (US70, US15 then Lost Hills via
Bakersfield and Wasco) and back via Sacramento on both US50 and US80, so
I have some idea of the area. Your advics seems highly sensible to me,
but I have one question: wouldn't exactly the same advice about landout
planning for flights in that area also apply to all single-engine and
light twin GA aircraft?


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

On 5/28/2019 3:50 PM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Tue, 28 May 2019 13:31:15 -0700, Andy Blackburn wrote:

Know terrain where you are headed before you head there.

I've only flown once in the Great Basin and that was only local soaring
from Minden when nothing but weak thermals were on offer, but I have driven
from Denver to Lost Hills, CA (US70, US15 then Lost Hills via Bakersfield
and Wasco) and back via Sacramento on both US50 and US80, so I have some
idea of the area. Your advics seems highly sensible to me, but I have one
question: wouldn't exactly the same advice about landout planning for
flights in that area also apply to all single-engine and light twin GA
aircraft?


Well - IMO - yes...but from what I can tell few power-only pilots think that
way. There was a recent (two fatalities) ditching of an SEL plane in Lake
Michigan (no trace of plane/people found) which - if one is to believe
comments from folks familiar with the area/FlightAware-inspection - could have
been avoided by either flying higher, or another 12 miles (at their cruising
height) out of their way.

As with much in aviation, things are often "just fine" until they're not. I
was never a fan (bumming rides in GA) cruising over unlandable terrain
presuming the engine was going to continue running.

YMMV, of course.

Bob W.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

Ben:
I fly a lot of cross country kilometers each year and usually with a couple of land outs each season. Historically my biggest problem in landing off airport has been guard dogs. About 3 times now I have encountered some big mean dog who has been waiting all his life for this moment when he will save his farm & family from the big white thing that just arrived from the sky and from the guy who is walking toward the house. Seriously - I've no history of damaging anything (including my gliders) but the unchained guard dog can be a major crisis. So my advice is to enjoy flying XC, accept that off airport landings are an expected risk in the sport, follow all of the wise advice from others in this string - and put some Milkbones in your land out kit.
ROY

On Sunday, May 26, 2019 at 2:00:05 PM UTC-7, Charles Ethridge wrote:
Hi all.
snipped so I'm not a total newbie in the glider world.

Ben:
Welcome to soaring, ownership and the adventure/dilemma of determining your OWN risk.


1. Are off-airport landouts common?

For owners, often, yes. For US renters and many US club pilots, not so much..
In other countries, depending on terrain and training, often yes for all.

I've now heard/read two different philosophies on this. One is from Garret Willat's articles,

Garret's talking about US event RACING ! Not US recreational XC. And yes, many posters in r.a.s. think racing IS recreational soaring. For them, it is..



The opposite philosophy I THOUGHT I heard in David Lessnick's great webinar last week was that one should ALWAYS be landing out at airports and never on roads or unknown fields....or at least have a KNOWN-TO-BE-SAFE field or airport within your glide range.

You DID hear that, a little bit. Personally, I wish that part came through a little more clearly. Great ship, great site, great weather --and expecting to run around "at cloudbase" with no clear grip on the flip side..... when it OD's or you trip/stumble and 'can't get home'. David had no pre-launch plan for "I can't get home". That was his first mental stumble. When faced with that situation, he didn't process quickly enough to devolve to 'let's land somewhere safe'. Really - that's our Number 1 job. The soaring is incidental.
(What? Did she really Say that? Yep.)

Some Where Safe !!
You decide.
That's most frequently an airport.
It might be seasonally appropriate farm fields.
It might be dry lake beds, only rarely is it a road.
XC Pilots can minimize risk by scouting landout sites prior to using
a course line. You can minimize risk by adding safety margins to your calculations of performance,and arrival altitudes. You should minimize
risk by practicing precision landing skills before leaving glide from home.

Don't expect to load a landing site database from some source and march off 'safely'. There are changes over time, different spans, database authors might expect better skill-sets by landers. Not every place is Grade A.

I appreciate a pilot who's aspirations include making zero insurance claims while enjoying soaring as fully as they wish. It helps keep my costs lower by lowering losses from a tiny pool of premium payers.


2. When landing out, are your gliders often damaged, even just a little bit?
huge snip

Yes, TOO often.
Sometimes from poor field assessment skills, sometimes poor landing skills.
(The most insurance claims are landouts at home on local flights. Those pilots weren't expecting to landout.)

I doubt that I could afford to get another one like it, since I got a very good glider at a great price.

My view? You crash, you remove one sailplane permanently from the inventory..
I don't care if you get your cash back. Soaring never gets the glider back....
(well-sometimes some talented, dedicated human rebuilds one).

Tom Knauff, in his book After Solo, recommends specific and thorough landout training snip
But as far as I know (Soaring magazine ads, webinars, this forum), no one is teaching such a course. So without confidence in landing out without ANY damage, is cross-country flying thus a rich man's sport?

There is training available. Many places don't have enough customers willing to pay for XC training coupled with many glider CFIs not having XC skills in the US. The AirSailing Camp is one good suggestion. Grabbing a ride along with Hank Nixon, Sara Arnold, John Good, Doug Jacobs, Rich at Seminole, Jason at Estrella, Burt at Marfa. Me. We all love that level of teaching.

I plan to offer my Site Selection - Visual Tools talk in the Webinar series soon. Then it will continue to be on the SSA's web site into the future.

Soaring doesn't have to be a rich man's sport. I have been fortunate to have many chances to fly gorgeous equipment. But I am teaching in 20 to 30 to 1 gliders. Either way, I planned to bring the equipment to a known safe place to land, when local and XC. And over more than 40 years, I have regrettably done a little rash along the way. Thankfully, given self discipline over impulsivity,
all the machinery still flies.

Seek training,
Cindy B
Mojave, CA


Charles "Ben" Ethridge

On Tuesday, May 28, 2019 at 2:50:45 PM UTC-7, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Tue, 28 May 2019 13:31:15 -0700, Andy Blackburn wrote:

Know terrain where you are headed before you head there.

I've only flown once in the Great Basin and

but I have one question: wouldn't exactly the same advice about landout
planning for flights in that area also apply to all single-engine and
light twin GA aircraft?


Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

Of course it does.
But the airplane folks think that the engine will always run,
the the fueler kid filled the tanks,
that the wx forecast is always correct,
that ATC always tracks them,
that ATC sweeps their paths clean,
that ELT's always work,
that Search & Rescue will appear instantly after pushing a button,
that cell phones work everywhere,
that landout supply kits are not essential.
That keeping glide altitude to a flat place or a road is prudish.
(I'm being only a little tongue in cheek.)

Wait..... a road? Yep. ASEL span is only 36 feet or less,
and they fit on two lane roads. The gear print on even a light twin is
only 12 feet and fits in a lane.
If they wreck on a road, it makes it easy to find the debris field.

Typically, the suggestion is to follow the interstate highways.
Now with GPS direct, that is less often the practice.

Cindy B
Mojave, CA