JSF and close air support

Everything I read seems to indicate the JSF is intended to do air to ground
work primarily with high-tech weapons like JDAM bombs. However, I get the
impression that such weapons require a considerable amount of advance planning.
This would seem to make loitering near a combat area waiting for a call for
support if and when the need arrises more or less impossible, in turn making
this combination of weapon and aircraft useless for that sort of work. Perhaps
this is not overly relevant when engaged in wholesale warfare, with hordes of
Apaches to take care of targets of opportunity/necessaty (SP?), but how much of
a problem would it present in a small scale bush fire war? Is my idea of CAS
totally outdated? Or am I mistaken about the capabilities of weapons like JDAM?
How effective is a JSF with dumb bombs, or LGBs, or, for example, AGM65
missiles?

Rob

"Rob van Riel" wrote in message
om...
Everything I read seems to indicate the JSF is intended to do air to
ground
work primarily with high-tech weapons like JDAM bombs. However, I get the
impression that such weapons require a considerable amount of advance
planning.
This would seem to make loitering near a combat area waiting for a call
for
support if and when the need arrises more or less impossible, in turn
making
this combination of weapon and aircraft useless for that sort of work.

Not really. It will just require the pilot to enter the target coordinates
he is given (or maybe even datalinked by the time the F-35 is in service).
According to FAS: "JDAM provides the user with a variety of targeting
schemes, such as preplanned and inflight captive carriage retargeting."

Perhaps
this is not overly relevant when engaged in wholesale warfare, with hordes
of
Apaches to take care of targets of opportunity/necessaty (SP?), but how
much of
a problem would it present in a small scale bush fire war? Is my idea of
CAS
totally outdated? Or am I mistaken about the capabilities of weapons like
JDAM?

To a certain extent it is likely a bit dated. We are now producing the
Tactical Tomahawk cruise missile, which features the capability of being
retargeted in flight--the Navy's SLAM-ER ATA already has that capability. So
programming the coordinates for SDB's or larger JDAM's into them while
enroute to the target is not going to be a big deal. Nor will these be the
only weapons used by the F-35 in the CAS arena.

Brooks

How effective is a JSF with dumb bombs, or LGBs, or, for example, AGM65
missiles?

Rob

On Tue, 2 Mar 2004 08:33:11 -0500, "Kevin Brooks"
wrote:

"Rob van Riel" wrote in message
. com...
Perhaps
this is not overly relevant when engaged in wholesale warfare, with hordes
of
Apaches to take care of targets of opportunity/necessaty (SP?), but how
much of
a problem would it present in a small scale bush fire war? Is my idea of
CAS
totally outdated? Or am I mistaken about the capabilities of weapons like
JDAM?

To a certain extent it is likely a bit dated. We are now producing the
Tactical Tomahawk cruise missile, which features the capability of being
retargeted in flight--the Navy's SLAM-ER ATA already has that capability. So
programming the coordinates for SDB's or larger JDAM's into them while
enroute to the target is not going to be a big deal. Nor will these be the
only weapons used by the F-35 in the CAS arena.

Quick update. The ability to update target coordinates for JDAMs in
flight is currently being trialled under the Affordable Moving Surface
Target Engagement (AMSTE) - at least I think that's what the acronym
expands to.

Basically two off board SAR radars provide updates - IIRC the trials
are using a JSTARS and a phased array (I think from the F-35 program,
but can't readily recall). The first fe test shots have provided CEP
of the order of 10m, so eneough to get a kill on truck and light
armour. I imagine by the time JSF reaches squadron service this will
be more routine (perhaps once coords are passed by the ground troops
the F-35 radar will lock on to the SAR return of teh target
automatically.

There are also demos in progress for cheap IIR seekers to strap to the
fron of JDAMs.

---
Peter Kemp

Life is short - drink faster

"Peter Kemp" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 2 Mar 2004 08:33:11 -0500, "Kevin Brooks"
wrote:

"Rob van Riel" wrote in message
. com...
Perhaps
this is not overly relevant when engaged in wholesale warfare, with
hordes
of
Apaches to take care of targets of opportunity/necessaty (SP?), but how
much of
a problem would it present in a small scale bush fire war? Is my idea
of
CAS
totally outdated? Or am I mistaken about the capabilities of weapons
like
JDAM?

To a certain extent it is likely a bit dated. We are now producing the
Tactical Tomahawk cruise missile, which features the capability of being
retargeted in flight--the Navy's SLAM-ER ATA already has that capability.
So
programming the coordinates for SDB's or larger JDAM's into them while
enroute to the target is not going to be a big deal. Nor will these be
the
only weapons used by the F-35 in the CAS arena.

Quick update. The ability to update target coordinates for JDAMs in
flight is currently being trialled under the Affordable Moving Surface
Target Engagement (AMSTE) - at least I think that's what the acronym
expands to.

Interesting info. But I think we may be talking in different directions a
bit. What I meant by "enroute to the target" was while it is still on the
rail of the launching aircraft. Maybe my adding "is not going to be a big
deal" was a poor choice of wording, as JDAM can already be loaded with its
target coordinates while it is hanging on an aircraft approaching the
release point. Apologies for the less than clear wording.

Brooks


Basically two off board SAR radars provide updates - IIRC the trials
are using a JSTARS and a phased array (I think from the F-35 program,
but can't readily recall). The first fe test shots have provided CEP
of the order of 10m, so eneough to get a kill on truck and light
armour. I imagine by the time JSF reaches squadron service this will
be more routine (perhaps once coords are passed by the ground troops
the F-35 radar will lock on to the SAR return of teh target
automatically.

There are also demos in progress for cheap IIR seekers to strap to the
fron of JDAMs.

---
Peter Kemp

Life is short - drink faster

impression that such weapons require a considerable amount of advance planning.

A high percentage of navy fighters in Afghanistan attacked targets
that were not known to the pilot when he launched from the carrier.
Perhaps these were not JADAMs?

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (requires authentication)

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

"Cub Driver" wrote in message
...

impression that such weapons require a considerable amount of advance
planning.

A high percentage of navy fighters in Afghanistan attacked targets
that were not known to the pilot when he launched from the carrier.
Perhaps these were not JADAMs?

JDAM can be programmed in flight. One of the worst fratricide cases during
OEF occured in Dec 01 when the special operator on the ground apparently
mistakenly gave the crew of of the supporting B-52 his own coordinates
instead of those of the target, resulting in a JDAM striking near their OP
and killing three SF troops and five allied Afghan soldiers.

Brooks



all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (requires authentication)

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

On Wed, 3 Mar 2004 08:45:25 -0500, "Kevin Brooks"
wrote:


JDAM can be programmed in flight. One of the worst fratricide cases during
OEF occured in Dec 01 when the special operator on the ground apparently
mistakenly gave the crew of of the supporting B-52 his own coordinates
instead of those of the target, resulting in a JDAM striking near their OP
and killing three SF troops and five allied Afghan soldiers.

Brooks

This is the fault of the design of the plugger. When his system
froze, he rebooted it. The default coordinates are the location of the
unit itself, which is why he and his buddies got bombed.




Eric Pinnell

(Author, "Claws of The Dragon", "The Omega File")

For a preview, see: http://www.ericpinnell.com and click on "books"

In article , Peter Kemp
wrote:

Basically two off board SAR radars provide updates - IIRC the trials
are using a JSTARS and a phased array (I think from the F-35 program,
but can't readily recall).

More likely either the F/A-18E/F or the F-15C with APG-63(V)2 .
I don't think the F-35 radar is in position yet to be able to support
tests outside the F-35 program.

--
Harry Andreas
Engineering raconteur

In article , Harry Andreas
wrote:

In article , Peter Kemp
wrote:

Basically two off board SAR radars provide updates - IIRC the trials
are using a JSTARS and a phased array (I think from the F-35 program,
but can't readily recall).

More likely either the F/A-18E/F or the F-15C with APG-63(V)2 .
I don't think the F-35 radar is in position yet to be able to support
tests outside the F-35 program.

Yep, it's the F-35 radar on a BAC 1-11. Here's a link to an article
about the jet.

http://www.forrelease.com/D20031021/...553.29871.html

I'm not sure what software it's running or how mature it is to the
final version. I was a bit surprised myself but it's a program parallel
to one of mine so I've seen the brief and discussed it with one of the
PM's.

Pugs

"Harry Andreas" wrote
Peter Kemp wrote:

Basically two off board SAR radars provide updates - IIRC the trials
are using a JSTARS and a phased array (I think from the F-35 program,
but can't readily recall).

More likely either the F/A-18E/F or the F-15C with APG-63(V)2 .
I don't think the F-35 radar is in position yet to be able to support
tests outside the F-35 program.

I read recently that an AMSTE demonstration with a single RADAR sensor was
successful. That's a major milestone since the earlier algorithms required
fusing two RADAR sensors to get the resolution required. I don't think
mono-sensor demo involved a fighter sensor but I don't recall any details.

Both JDAM and SDB are planned to allow use of a terminal imager. Because the
GPS nav puts the weapon into a small error basket, the terminal seeker can
be very inexpensive, given the small field of regard. On the other hand,
JDAM accuracy has been consistently better than spec, so the users are less
interested in the terminal seeker.

I'm not sure how AMSTE plays with the terminal seeker. Moving target
engagement requires post-release updates and a data link from the launcher
to the weapon but everything to date that I've seen talks about aimpoint
updates for the GPS/INS.