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F-14 on the History Channel's "Modern Marvels"



 
 
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  #1  
Old October 10th 03, 06:17 AM
Brian J. McCann
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Default F-14 on the History Channel's "Modern Marvels"

A couple of night ago the History Channel aired a program about the
F-14. During the promo it was stated that the Tomcat is the world's
fastest fighter. I dunno, every aviation book in my house puts it
clearly behind the F-15 and the MiG 25.

Also, the program stated that the Shah of Iran ordered a fly-off
between the F-14 and the F-15 in order to decide which one he was
gonna buy. But when the narrator was talking about the Eagle, they
showed footage of what was clearly an F-5.

So, what's going on here? Am I wrong, is the Tomcat actually faster
than the Eagle. And what's up with the F-5 footage? Did the US offer
the Shah F-5s or F-15s? Did the documentary show the wrong footage,
or did the narrator misread the copy, or was he given the wrong copy?
When I get confusing information from a documentary it makes me doubt
the validity of the entire work.

Did anyone else see the program, or can anyone give me some clear and
unimpeachable facts?

Thanks in advance,
Brian J. McCann
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  #3  
Old October 10th 03, 09:22 AM
Tom Cooper
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They definitely blew that one: using footage that isn't suiting to the text
and the story.

The Shah has not "ordered" a fly-off: he requested the opportunity to fly
each plane AFTER the IIAF has already made its mind. The fly-off was offered
to him after all the briefings in Tehran, and because the Pentagon would not
let him fly the F-14 or F-15.

Iran, nevertheless, ordered F-5E/Fs already before it ordered the F-14s:
these were intended as interim solution unitl the decision about the YF-16
or YF-17 would be made.

Re. speed: the F-15 should have the official top speed some 200km/h higher
than the F-14.

If you're confused about the quality of the show in question, it's easy to
find out how well researcherd it is: have they maintained that the F-14 saw
no serious service within the IRIAF during the war agianst Iraq?

Tom Cooper
Co-Author:
Iran-Iraq War in the Air, 1980-1988:
http://www.acig.org/pg1/content.php
and,
Iranian F-4 Phantom II Units in Combat:
http://www.osprey-publishing.co.uk/t...hp/title=S6585


  #4  
Old October 10th 03, 02:02 PM
John Mullen
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"Tom Cooper" wrote in message
...
They definitely blew that one: using footage that isn't suiting to the

text
and the story.

The Shah has not "ordered" a fly-off: he requested the opportunity to fly
each plane AFTER the IIAF has already made its mind. The fly-off was

offered
to him after all the briefings in Tehran, and because the Pentagon would

not
let him fly the F-14 or F-15.

Iran, nevertheless, ordered F-5E/Fs already before it ordered the F-14s:
these were intended as interim solution unitl the decision about the YF-16
or YF-17 would be made.

Re. speed: the F-15 should have the official top speed some 200km/h higher
than the F-14.

If you're confused about the quality of the show in question, it's easy to
find out how well researcherd it is: have they maintained that the F-14

saw
no serious service within the IRIAF during the war agianst Iraq?


I've seen the show in question and it's full of basic errors. They did make
the claim that it's the fastest fighter in the world which I don't think
even in its day it was. Can't remember if they even mentioned the Iranian
angle.

John


  #5  
Old October 10th 03, 05:05 PM
John
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"Brian J. McCann" wrote:

A couple of night ago the History Channel aired a program about the
F-14. Also, the program stated that the Shah of Iran ordered a fly-off
between the F-14 and the F-15 in order to decide which one he was
gonna buy. But when the narrator was talking about the Eagle, they
showed footage of what was clearly an F-5.
And what's up with the F-5 footage? Did the US offer
the Shah F-5s or F-15s?


While on the whole History channel is worth it, they do make some real
screwups, the film editors appear to grab ANY footage that looks good and

put it in , hoping that no-one notices. and with that, its ruins their
creditablity.
On another thought..
When they came to KY to film the Glacier Girl first flight. they messed
with the
film. they had LOTS of good footage, and cut it to pieces. There was a
camera
crew on the ground and another in the air in a camera plane. very little
of it
made the airing. They did the Hollywood edit routine.. shame too...



  #6  
Old October 10th 03, 07:36 PM
Brian J. McCann
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Snip

If you're confused about the quality of the show in question, it's easy to
find out how well researcherd it is: have they maintained that the F-14 saw
no serious service within the IRIAF during the war agianst Iraq?

They made no mention of the Iran-Iraq war. What they DID say was that
the F-14s were sabotaged, possibly by Grumman technicians, at some
point during the revolution. They made it clear that the Tomcats
would be useless as weapons platforms without the destroyed/missing
components.
  #7  
Old October 10th 03, 07:37 PM
John Carrier
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Certainly not faster than the MIG 25. As for the Eagle, the F-15 clearly
has superior thrust/weight (maybe not much versus the F-14B/D), but that
doesn't necessarily translate to top speed. Inlet performance, trim drag,
etc come into play as one exceeds transonic speeds (1.2+). Most books have
the F-14A listed at 2.34IMN ... it actually went 2.41 or 2.42 once in the
test program. The B's and D's actually have a little lower top end. The
airplane is NATOPS limited to 1.88 (I think due to instability with a burner
blowout above that speed ... the TF-30's weren't great fighter motors), but
its acceleration was still impressive at that speed so I'm confident 2.0+
was easily achievable.

The F-15 has usually been noted to have a top end of 2.5+ or 1650mph, but
I've never seen an actual achieved top end nor am I familiar with a
particular dash-1 limit. I suspect it's actually quite a bit less.
Discounting Streak Eagle, I'd be curious to know what the Eagle can do. I'd
be curious to know what speeds typical pilots have seen in the jet.

R / John


  #8  
Old October 11th 03, 01:52 AM
Mark Schaeffer
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Around 20 years ago, I heard a rumor that all copies of the software
were destroyed.

Mark

Brian J. McCann wrote:
Snip


They made it clear that the Tomcats would be useless as weapons
platforms without the destroyed/missing components.


  #9  
Old October 11th 03, 04:26 AM
JD
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"John Carrier" wrote in message ...
Certainly not faster than the MIG 25. As for the Eagle, the F-15 clearly
has superior thrust/weight (maybe not much versus the F-14B/D), but that
doesn't necessarily translate to top speed. Inlet performance, trim drag,
etc come into play as one exceeds transonic speeds (1.2+). Most books have
the F-14A listed at 2.34IMN ... it actually went 2.41 or 2.42 once in the
test program. The B's and D's actually have a little lower top end. The
airplane is NATOPS limited to 1.88 (I think due to instability with a burner
blowout above that speed ... the TF-30's weren't great fighter motors), but
its acceleration was still impressive at that speed so I'm confident 2.0+
was easily achievable.

The F-15 has usually been noted to have a top end of 2.5+ or 1650mph, but
I've never seen an actual achieved top end nor am I familiar with a
particular dash-1 limit. I suspect it's actually quite a bit less.
Discounting Streak Eagle, I'd be curious to know what the Eagle can do. I'd
be curious to know what speeds typical pilots have seen in the jet.

R / John


The lowered top speed wasn't primarily due to the blowout but due to
operational longevity. Most of today's US aircraft detuned engine wise
to save the taxpayer's money. When I last spoke to a RIO and on one
occassion he told me that he told his pilot to back off the throttle
as they we already over Mach 2.x. I guess they both weren't paying
attention to speed. This was sometime last year. The operational top
speed can be surpassed.

BTW, the F15's has got a cap as well. IIRC, it's M1.81. Of course, the
aircraft can fly past this.

In fact, in a past Red Flag a F15 has a hard time intercepting a RAAF
F111 in which the F15 ran out of gas.

The overall acceleration numbers between the F15 and the F14B/D are
identical that's if the F14's wings are positioned at Auto. The F14A
was only a second behind. If the wings were set the manual and fully
aft, the F14B/D would be a great deal faster. Due the aerodynamics of
the F14, it's overall drag profile (CDp) (LE 45 deg for the F15 and 68
deg for the F14) is lower than the F15's thus a lower thrust
requirement to reach top speed. Which btw, during F14 testing, once
the aircraft hit the top speed requirement, they backed off the
throttles. Top speeds are only great for any aircraft when the
aircraft is clean with no pylons.

I do recall a post from an USAF crew chief at Nellis that the F15 did
hit M2.5.


If you were to compare the aircraft at the transonic regime and do a
drag race from M0.9 to Mach 1.8 or whatever speed, you'll see that the
F14 will get there quicker.

SEP for both the F14B/D and F15 are identical in the transonic regime.

Nevertheless, another RIO, Chunx, posted at a forum and said in the
90's that the F14B/D was known as the "world's fastest aircraft". I
guess that was due to the ability to unload and change the aero
profile and extend quickly from a fight thus dictating it. He doesn't
know if the latest F16 blocks with the newer engines out accelerate
the F14B/D when the wings are fully aft. So things may have changed.
Hoever, from what I read from F14 drivers, F18 drivers have a hard
time intercepting it.

JD
  #10  
Old October 11th 03, 06:46 AM
Ron
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In fact, in a past Red Flag a F15 has a hard time intercepting a RAAF
F111 in which the F15 ran out of gas.


In fact, in a past Red Flag a F15 has a hard time intercepting a RAAF
F111 in which the F15 ran out of gas.


I can imagine anything would about run out of gas trying to intercept a Vark,
especially from 6 O' clock.


Ron
Pilot/Wildland Firefighter

 




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