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The new Electric Cessna 172



 
 
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  #21  
Old December 31st 12, 08:24 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Orval Fairbairn
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Posts: 824
Default The new Electric Cessna 172

In article ,
wrote:

Dylan Smith wrote:
On 2012-12-31, Orval Fairbairn wrote:
There are still major chemical limitations on energy storage/weight
issues that preclude them from being a viable power source for aircraft
-- and cars.


Well, not for cars - there are already all-electric cars with a 200 mile
range. With it being entirely normal for most households to have two or
more cars, it's entirely practical that one be electric in most instances,
since anything that demands cross-country driving can be done in the
other vehicle.


That is 200 miles on the highway with the windows up and no air conditioning.


.... and in daylight and moderate temperatures. As soon as the mercury
drops into the 40s or below (Deg F), their ability to store and deliver
a charge goes into the tank. Add cabin heating, defrost, etc. and it
only gets worse.


This makes them an expensive niche vehicle as is evindenced by their lack
of sales.


But for aircraft, batteries are a long way off from being viable (well,
for aircraft bigger than radio controlled ones - all of my RC aircraft
are electric, including helicopters weighing almost 7kg)


Absent some earth shaking new physics, batteries will never be viable
for a general purpose aircraft; motor gliders maybe, but something
equivelant to a C-172, nope.


For self-launching sailplanes, which don't need a big "fuel tank," --
yes.


  #26  
Old January 1st 13, 05:04 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
[email protected]
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Posts: 2,892
Default The new Electric Cessna 172

Vaughn wrote:
On 12/31/2012 6:50 PM, wrote:
in the expectation that huge improvements are just around
the corner is that the technology has been around a LONG time and is
not "emerging"; the huge improvements happened long ago and all that
can be expected now is minor improvements.



In a word, bull****.

There have been drastic improvements in lithium - ion battery technology
in recent years. That's why they have largely supplanted NIMH batteries
for new EV designs.


Nope, the "drastic improvements" in lithium-ion batteries were about 30
years ago when it was figured out how to make them commercially practical.

Since then there have been increamental improvements, such as cathodes
containing polyanions in about 1990, cathodes of phospho-olivines about
2002, better doping materials about the same time, and adding iron
phosphate nano particales to increase energy density around 2004.

All the improvements in lithium-ion batteries have for the most part
since then been in better control of the manufacturing process.

Will there be continuing significant improvement in coming years? I
imagine that my crystal ball is no better than yours, but my choice
would be to not put money against it.


It has already been about a decade since the last significant improvement.

There are some proposed manufacturing processes that could achieve 95%
of the theoretical maximum energy density, however currently they don't
work outside of a lab, i.e. in a factory.

There are numerous other battery chemistries that theoretically surpass
lithium-ion by a large margin, but again only in a lab.

If there are any drastic improvements in batteries, that is most likely
where it will be when some manufacturing engineer figures how to actually
make them in quantity.


  #27  
Old January 1st 13, 04:10 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
a[_3_]
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Posts: 562
Default The new Electric Cessna 172

There was a contest recently where one had to demonstrate more than 200 passenger miles per gallon equivalent, and an engineering team from Penn State won it with a battery powered airplane.

See

http://live.psu.edu/story/55543

for details.




On Friday, December 21, 2012 9:02:15 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Ideal for flight schools. The amazing

brushless electric ring motors which

I mentioned before, produce 600 lbs.

static thrust.



http://www.flyingmag.com/news/two-pl...na-172-skyhawk



--

Mark

  #28  
Old January 1st 13, 04:13 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
[email protected]
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Posts: 21
Default The new Electric Cessna 172

On Monday, December 31, 2012 6:50:35 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Vaughn wrote:

On 12/31/2012 1:54 PM, wrote:


As for "emerging technology", the lithium battery was invented in 1912..




How is their invention date relevant to this discussion?




Airplanes were invented in about that same time-frame, are you saying


that no significant changes have occurred in aviation since then?




Vaughn




Umm, no, what I am saying to people that use phrases like "emerging

technology" in the expectation that huge improvements are just around

the corner is that the technology has been around a LONG time and is

not "emerging"; the huge improvements happened long ago and all that

can be expected now is minor improvements.



An "emerging technology" where there could be huge improvements would be

something like someone inventing Star Trek technology, e.g. dilithum

power or impulse engines.


Not trying to argue with you Jim.
But this is my field of research.
Also, when I talk "electric", no one
ever said exclusively batteries. The
advances in PEM fuel cell technology
is through the roof. These "range-
extenders" using ammonia borane,
and sodium silicide take electric
flight orders of magnitude beyone
the internal combustion engine, both
in torque, comfort, and sustainability.


http://www.chargedevs.com/content/fe...ches-1500-whkg

http://www.energy-daily.com/reports/...tes_999.h tml

http://www.northwestern.edu/newscent...ergy-kung.html

http://www.worldofchemicals.com/medi...king/1721.html

http://www.intelligentutility.com/ar...-possible-soon

http://www.marketplace.org/topics/su...r-game-changer

---
(sorry, was unable to transfer
the link for this)

Fuel Cells
Powerful Implications

Lt Col David P. Blanks, USAF
Editorial Abstract: Getting somewhere, sharing information, and producing things all require energy. However, our primary source of energy—oil—is nonrenewable and exhaustible. If we wish to advance, we must seek an alternative, such as hydrogen, the most abundant element in the universe. Fuel cells have the potential not only to transform the future energy needs of the United States and the US Air Force, but also to change how and why we fight.
  #29  
Old January 1st 13, 04:40 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
[email protected]
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Posts: 21
Default The new Electric Cessna 172

On Tuesday, January 1, 2013 10:10:37 AM UTC-5, a wrote:
There was a contest recently where one had to demonstrate more than 200 passenger miles per gallon equivalent, and an engineering team from Penn State won it with a battery powered airplane.



See



http://live.psu.edu/story/55543



for details.



http://nextbigfuture.com/2009/12/sup...-electric.html

--
Mark
  #30  
Old January 1st 13, 07:23 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
[email protected]
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Posts: 2,892
Default The new Electric Cessna 172

a wrote:
There was a contest recently where one had to demonstrate more than
200 passenger miles per gallon equivalent, and an engineering team from
Penn State won it with a battery powered airplane.

See

http://live.psu.edu/story/55543

for details.



It is just a big motor glider.



 




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