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#1
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wrote:
I am looking for information on the following Thunderbird accidents. Any information would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. F-100D breakup at Laughlin AFB in 1967 Pilot: Capt. Merrill McPeak Problem: Wings came off during high-G pullup. Pilot ejected safely. (McPeak became Chief of Staff of the USAF in 1990, a position he held until his retirement in 1994.) Accident a Hill AFB in May (?) 1981 The only 1981 accident I can find is September 8, 1981 in Cleveland. Post-show, flight leader Col. D.L. Smith was killed when his T-38 ingested several birds on takeoff. He and his crew chief ejected, but his parachute did not open. (The crew chief survived.) There was an F-16 crash at Hill AFB in August of '81, but the Thunderbirds weren't yet flying F-16s. Diamond crash at Indian Springs in 1982 What's to say? It was determined that the leader's (Maj. Norm Lowry) aircraft sustained a mechanical malfunction that caused it to crash (failure to pull up after completing a loop), and the three other members of the diamond (Capt. Willie Mays, Capt. Joseph "Pete" Peterson, and Capt. Mark Melancon), being focused on the leader, followed him in. I seem to recall that there might have been a loose bolt in Major Lowry's stick that had caused the stick to jam at just the wrong time. At any rate, that was the end of the Thunderbirds flying T-38s - they transitioned to F-16s for the 1983 season. -Marc -- Marc Reeve actual email address after removal of 4s & spaces is c4m4r4a4m4a4n a4t c4r4u4z4i4o d4o4t c4o4m |
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Marc Reeve posted:
What's to say? It was determined that the leader's (Maj. Norm Lowry) aircraft sustained a mechanical malfunction that caused it to crash (failure to pull up after completing a loop),... I seem to recall that there might have been a loose bolt in Major Lowry's stick that had caused the stick to jam at just the wrong time. I believe the Board put the blame on a "bob-weight" that effected the feel of the stick forces...no jamming that I recall. I was an additional duty safety guy in my squadron, and briefed it. The T-38 FAIPs in the sqdn were skeptical (to put it mildly) of the "official" explanation. ISTR that the Accident Board also found that the Formation was lower than briefed/expected at the apex of the "over the top" maneuver being flown, and the findings speculated they could have pulled out if... Sad day none the less. Juvat |
#3
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Juvat wrote:
Marc Reeve posted: What's to say? It was determined that the leader's (Maj. Norm Lowry) aircraft sustained a mechanical malfunction that caused it to crash (failure to pull up after completing a loop),... I seem to recall that there might have been a loose bolt in Major Lowry's stick that had caused the stick to jam at just the wrong time. I believe the Board put the blame on a "bob-weight" that effected the feel of the stick forces...no jamming that I recall. I was an additional duty safety guy in my squadron, and briefed it. The T-38 FAIPs in the sqdn were skeptical (to put it mildly) of the "official" explanation. ISTR that the Accident Board also found that the Formation was lower than briefed/expected at the apex of the "over the top" maneuver being flown, and the findings speculated they could have pulled out if... You've got that right. I was at Holloman in Fighter Lead-In at the time. As the only operator of T-38s in TAC, the 479th wing was tasked for the "pilot member" and the "Flying Safety Officer member" of the accident board. The initial accident report came back as "pilot error" in that Major Lowry allowed the formation to continue the maneuver after being at a lower than required altitude at the top of the loop, thereby letting the aircraft proceed to a point from which safe recovery was not possible. When briefed to General Creech, his comment was "Thunderbirds don't make pilot errors." He directed that they come back with something else. The second attempt introduced the "bob-weight" explanation. The catch was that with 160 AT-38s on the flight line at Holloman, no one had ever encountered the bob-weight before. I flew F-4s with Norm Lowry in the 401st TFW at Torrejon. He was a first rate fighter pilot and it is unfortunate that he was lost in such a manner. Ed Rasimus Fighter Pilot (ret) ***"When Thunder Rolled: *** An F-105 Pilot Over N. Vietnam" *** from Smithsonian Books ISBN: 1588341038 |
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Ed Rasimus posted:
The initial accident report came back as "pilot error" ... That was pretty much the attitude when everybody looked at the details of the Final report...especially the T-38 FAIPs. When briefed to General Creech, his comment was "Thunderbirds don't make pilot errors." He directed that they come back with something else. The good general was also known to "red line" Lts and Capts that crashed jets. A co-worker jumped out of an F-16 at Nellis as a 1Lt, Creech had him grounded and shipped out, he went to WC-130s. The cause turned out to be IIRC, Tower Shaft failure, the first incident. After Creech retired, the criminal was allowed back in Vipers. He just retired from the CO ANG. |
#5
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"Juvat" wrote in message ... Marc Reeve posted: What's to say? It was determined that the leader's (Maj. Norm Lowry) aircraft sustained a mechanical malfunction that caused it to crash (failure to pull up after completing a loop),... I seem to recall that there might have been a loose bolt in Major Lowry's stick that had caused the stick to jam at just the wrong time. I believe the Board put the blame on a "bob-weight" that effected the feel of the stick forces...no jamming that I recall. I was an additional duty safety guy in my squadron, and briefed it. The T-38 FAIPs in the sqdn were skeptical (to put it mildly) of the "official" explanation. ISTR that the Accident Board also found that the Formation was lower than briefed/expected at the apex of the "over the top" maneuver being flown, and the findings speculated they could have pulled out if... Sad day none the less. Juvat The investigation was conducted at Holloman. Rog Parrish, Canterbury, and others were involved. the FSO came from the 479th TFTW. It was a good and truthful investigation. These people were first rate officers. Their initial conclusions were VERY hard for them to submit, but they did the right thing. They told the truth!! Their initial report was bounced by Creech and sent back down for "further review". Creech insisted they "look again for another reason"!! "Thunderbirds don't make mistakes" he said!!! The bob weight crap was in the "revised" report sent back up to TAC. EVERYBODY knew it was bull ****!!! Creech accepted it immediately! I'll tell you this much and you can take it to the bank! Norm didn't have a "bob weight problem". There IS NO F*****G bobweight on the T38!!! Every Thunderbird I know believes Norm simply blew the loop, and from my own personal experience with low altitude vertical recoveries, and with personal knowledge of the T38 in this environment specifically, I can tell you that this is exactly what happened. From the Thunderbirds viewpoint, specifically from an ex leader of the team who will remain nameless here for obvious reasons, "It was a line abreast loop. When they went in I knew immediately that lead impacted last...not FIRST!!!!!". And he was right. Anyone familiar with the mechanics of a line abreast loop recovery lead foul up while flying as a member of a jet acro team would know IMMEDIATELY the implication of this simple fact!! It showed that way on the video tape taken at the com trailer, but the tape vanished!!!! Let me put it another way if I can. Creech isn't really the most popular guy at the Thunderbird reunions....if you get my drift!! Dudley Henriques International Fighter Pilots Fellowship Commercial Pilot/CFI Retired |
#6
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Dudley Henriques wrote:
Let me put it another way if I can. Creech isn't really the most popular guy at the Thunderbird reunions....if you get my drift!! Seeing as how he died August 26th, I don't think that will be an issue anymo http://tbaa.org/gen_creech.htm Guy |
#7
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"Guy Alcala" wrote in message . .. Dudley Henriques wrote: Let me put it another way if I can. Creech isn't really the most popular guy at the Thunderbird reunions....if you get my drift!! Seeing as how he died August 26th, I don't think that will be an issue anymo http://tbaa.org/gen_creech.htm Guy Excuse me. That should have read, "He WASN'T the most popular guy at the Thunderbird reunions. My somewhat "limited" connections with him died many years ago, obviously before he did! Dudley Henriques International Fighter Pilots Fellowship Commercial Pilot/CFI Retired |
#8
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Rumor had it that Creech personally had the one and only videotape of the
accident. Mark "Dudley Henriques" wrote in message hlink.net... "Juvat" wrote in message ... Marc Reeve posted: What's to say? It was determined that the leader's (Maj. Norm Lowry) aircraft sustained a mechanical malfunction that caused it to crash (failure to pull up after completing a loop),... I seem to recall that there might have been a loose bolt in Major Lowry's stick that had caused the stick to jam at just the wrong time. I believe the Board put the blame on a "bob-weight" that effected the feel of the stick forces...no jamming that I recall. I was an additional duty safety guy in my squadron, and briefed it. The T-38 FAIPs in the sqdn were skeptical (to put it mildly) of the "official" explanation. ISTR that the Accident Board also found that the Formation was lower than briefed/expected at the apex of the "over the top" maneuver being flown, and the findings speculated they could have pulled out if... Sad day none the less. Juvat The investigation was conducted at Holloman. Rog Parrish, Canterbury, and others were involved. the FSO came from the 479th TFTW. It was a good and truthful investigation. These people were first rate officers. Their initial conclusions were VERY hard for them to submit, but they did the right thing. They told the truth!! Their initial report was bounced by Creech and sent back down for "further review". Creech insisted they "look again for another reason"!! "Thunderbirds don't make mistakes" he said!!! The bob weight crap was in the "revised" report sent back up to TAC. EVERYBODY knew it was bull ****!!! Creech accepted it immediately! I'll tell you this much and you can take it to the bank! Norm didn't have a "bob weight problem". There IS NO F*****G bobweight on the T38!!! Every Thunderbird I know believes Norm simply blew the loop, and from my own personal experience with low altitude vertical recoveries, and with personal knowledge of the T38 in this environment specifically, I can tell you that this is exactly what happened. From the Thunderbirds viewpoint, specifically from an ex leader of the team who will remain nameless here for obvious reasons, "It was a line abreast loop. When they went in I knew immediately that lead impacted last...not FIRST!!!!!". And he was right. Anyone familiar with the mechanics of a line abreast loop recovery lead foul up while flying as a member of a jet acro team would know IMMEDIATELY the implication of this simple fact!! It showed that way on the video tape taken at the com trailer, but the tape vanished!!!! Let me put it another way if I can. Creech isn't really the most popular guy at the Thunderbird reunions....if you get my drift!! Dudley Henriques International Fighter Pilots Fellowship Commercial Pilot/CFI Retired |
#9
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"Mark" wrote in message . .. Rumor had it that Creech personally had the one and only videotape of the accident. Mark Al King was on the com trailer that day and he video taped the entire thing. Video taping each practice session is SOP for the team. His tape was turned in when it was "requested" by TAC as was his duty. To my knowledge, neither Al, or anyone else for that matter has seen that tape since....and I personally know a dozen ex-Thunderbirds who along with me have a VERY good idea what happened to it. Dudley Henriques International Fighter Pilots Fellowship Commercial Pilot/CFI Retired |
#10
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Hi
I did a quick search for Thunderbirds accidents, and found this webpage: http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/st...515537091.html which isn't about Thunderbirds accidents, but does mention that: "While there were 36 major accidents that killed 24 Thunderbird pilots between 1953 and 1981, there have been no fatalities and only one minor accident since the 1982 tragedy -- a fact in which Creech took great pride." I had no idea that there had been so many accidents involving the Thunderbirds. Was this because the pushed relativly "unreliable" planes of the 60's and 70's to (and beyond) their limits, or did they simply have a long string of bad luck?? Does anyone know is other display teams have suffered a similar accident rate? Regards Søren Augustesen ---------------------- Søren Augustesen Email: WWW: http://www.angelfire.com/falcon/sore...sen/index.html skrev i en meddelelse .. . I am looking for information on the following Thunderbird accidents. Any information would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. F-100D breakup at Laughlin AFB in 1967 Accident a Hill AFB in May (?) 1981 Diamond crash at Indian Springs in 1982 |
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