Fly tight for tight bomb patterns on the ground.

ArtKramr wrote:

In 1937, with career Army Air Corps crews, over Arizona with little wind it
worked great! In 1943 with crews that had been in service 18 months, over
Germany with flak and fighters...not so well.

How the hell would you know?

Books, ever heard of them? Oh, I'm sorry that's right, you don't read books
about WW II because you subscribe to the "if you weren't there, you don't know
****" theory. The problem with your theory is that nearly all of the books I've
read have been written from first hand accounts of people who were there.

Except a two mile long train of B-17s looks like donuts rolling off the
production line to an Me-109 pilot.


We never flew in "long trains".

I never said you did you ignorant old goof!

What rinky dink air force were you in?

The one from the United States. The one that has come to dominate enemies like
the Air Force of your generation could only dream of.

Too bad you never fought in a real war.

Well, I'm in good company. Kramer's "real wars" exclude everyone outside of the
World War II ETO from 1943-45. North Africa? Not real. Med? Not real. Pacific?
Please...not real. Korea? Not real. Vietnam? Not real. Desert Storm and all the
conflicts since then? Not real. In fact, I'm willing to bet the proud group of
"Kramer's not real warriors" will never stop growing.

I guess once you hit 80+ years of age its too hard to be self retrospective? If
I said half the things Kramer has I wouldn't be able to look at myself in the
mirror to shave.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: Fly tight for tight bomb patterns on the ground.
From: (B2431)
Date: 8/23/2004 8:40 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

From: "Pete"
Date: 8/23/2004 9:38 PM Central Daylight Time
Message-id:


"ArtKramr" wrote
Subject: Fly tight for tight bomb patterns on the ground.
From: (BUFDRVR)
Date: 8/23/2004 4:13 PM Pacific Standard Time

In 1937, with career Army Air Corps crews, over Arizona with little
wind
it
worked great! In 1943 with crews that had been in service 18 months,
over
Germany with flak and fighters...not so well.

How the hell would you know?

Except a two mile long train of B-17s looks like donuts rolling off
the
production line to an Me-109 pilot.


We never flew in "long trains". What rinky dink air force were you
in?
Not
ours for sure. Too bad you never fought in a real war.

Jeez, Art! He was *agreeing* with you.

Pete

If art wanted to experience a real war I would have been glad to oblige
by
having him next to me when I was in the Army in Viet Nam. Granted we had
a
greater survival rate than the AAF did (before he got there) but he had a
bed
to sleep in, hot meals and cold drinks. I don't think he would have
lasted
even
if he was 18 as I was.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired


Are't you the big hero.

Little ****y tonight there aren't we Art?

Better call the nurse for some more medication.


Have her unplug that phone line also!

Edwin

Subject: Fly tight for tight bomb patterns on the ground.
From: "Edwin"
Date: 8/23/2004 9:21 PM Pacific Standard Time

Little ****y tonight there aren't we Art?

Better call the nurse for some more medication.


Have her unplug that phone line also!

Edwin



And your battle credentials were...?


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

I said half the things Kramer has I wouldn't be able to look at myself in the
mirror to shave.



You still can't


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
I said half the things Kramer has I wouldn't be able to look at myself in
the
mirror to shave.



You still can't

Another sad piece of evidence supporting the theory that many people regress
to childlike behavior when they enter their senior years.



Arthur Kramer

Does Art know that he has become a very sad parody of himself? Does he know
that his behavior on this news group would be extremely hilarious were it
not for the slanderous remarks he makes to and about other veterans who
served honorably for their country in all capacities? Does he know that by
making such a complete ass of himself he denigrates the image of United
States service men and women who are currently serving? Didn't think so.

Jack G.


"Kevin Brooks" wrote in message
...

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
I said half the things Kramer has I wouldn't be able to look at myself
in
the
mirror to shave.



You still can't

Another sad piece of evidence supporting the theory that many people
regress
to childlike behavior when they enter their senior years.



Arthur Kramer

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: Fly tight for tight bomb patterns on the ground.
From: (BUFDRVR)
Date: 8/23/2004 4:13 PM Pacific Standard Time

In 1937, with career Army Air Corps crews, over Arizona with little wind
it
worked great! In 1943 with crews that had been in service 18 months, over
Germany with flak and fighters...not so well.

How the hell would you know?

And how would YOU know, Art? You wren't flying in 1937. Nor were you
flying in B-17's at all.

Looks like yet another example of Art's hypocracy. He even called himself
on it in a previous post:

"Let's suppose you hav never been laid but want to know what it is like. So
you
buy every book and read them carefully. Now you know. You feel quite expert
even though you have never actually been laid. But one day you meet a guy
who
has been laid and he tells you what it is like. But you are outraged. That
is
not what it said in the books. This guy is obviously a fraud, He knows
nothing
and you have the books to prove it. And these books are written by expertss
on
sex. So you know best. Now lets take war, Yu have never been to war but read
lot of books, reports etc so you feel you really have it all down cold. Then
you meet a guy who has actually been to war and what he tells you doesn't
agree
with what you read. So obviously this guy who has been to war knows nothing
while you who have never been to was know everything. You accuse him of
lying
and call him a fraud. Maybe you need to do two things:"


Except a two mile long train of B-17s looks like donuts rolling off the
production line to an Me-109 pilot.


We never flew in "long trains". What rinky dink air force were you in?
Not
ours for sure. Too bad you never fought in a real war.

So Art, regale us with all of your B-17 experiences. Whats that? You never
flew in B-17's? Then your opinion is worth spit.

In article , BUFDRVR
writes
Dave Eadsforth wrote:

However, how did the
formation attack compare with say a long string of B17s in trail, each
aiming individually?

In 1937, with career Army Air Corps crews, over Arizona with little wind it
worked great! In 1943 with crews that had been in service 18 months, over
Germany with flak and fighters...not so well.

The formation attack must be all or nothing,
whereas the trail attack must result in a number of well-aimed drops
amongst the average ones.

Except a two mile long train of B-17s looks like donuts rolling off the
production line to an Me-109 pilot.

Whoops - night time is not the best time for me to formulate a detailed
question!

I realise I said individual B17s (ouch!). What I meant to ask about was
a tactic I read about a while ago where Combat Wings would shake out
into individual Groups in trail at IP when a concentration of bombs was
required for a particular target. Are there any analyses of the
effectiveness of a succession of waves of Combat Wings over the target
versus a succession of formations of bombers broken down into individual
Groups?

If someone could give me a thumbnail sketch of how a series of B17
Combat Wings usually approached a target, and what specific options for
attack were possible between the IP and the RP I would be very grateful.

Many thanks in advance,

Dave

BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

Cheers,

Dave

--
Dave Eadsforth

(ArtKramr) wrote in message ...
The tighter the formation you fly the tighter the bomb pattern on the ground
and the more damage you do to the enemy.


http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer/stripes.htm





Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

When I arrived at Andersen AFB on Guam in the summer of 1969 with my
RTU (Replacement Training Unit) B-52D crew we got a personal briefing
by the Third Air Division Commander. He had a lot of slides on BDA
(bomb damage assessment). In the beginning the Buffs were dropping in
trail formation. BDA showed that the first one was digging a trench
with his 108 five hundred pounders, then the following drops were just
digging the trench deeper and deeper. The tactics had changed to a
system they called DASK (drift angle station keeping). This was an
echelon formation to the right, stacked up with 500 ft, and half mile
separation. Sometimes we dropped off the lead aircraft. Sometimes we
dropped individually using radar offset aiming points. At times we
dropped at the direction of ground based radar. This system was RBS
(radar bomb scoring) in reverse. The ground controller would give
heading changes and then initiate a count down to release. At that
time we usually flew in three ship formations.

Gene Myers

ArtKramr wrote:


In 1937, with career Army Air Corps crews, over Arizona with little wind it
worked great! In 1943 with crews that had been in service 18 months, over
Germany with flak and fighters...not so well.

How the hell would you know?

Except a two mile long train of B-17s looks like donuts rolling off the
production line to an Me-109 pilot.


We never flew in "long trains". What rinky dink air force were you in? Not
ours for sure. Too bad you never fought in a real war.

Arthur Kramer




Good grief Art, read what he said!

Dave