My engine quit!

I was doing my BFR last night in my club's Piper Lance (in case you're not
familiar: it has retractable gear and a IO-540 fuel injected engine). We
finished up with a bunch of touch and goes, demonstrating short, soft,
etc. The last landing, the instructor pulled the throttle and had me do a
forced landing. I had no trouble making the runway, and rolled off the
runway and over the hold short line. As I was tuning the ground frequency
on the radio, the engine died. And I was unable to restart it and neither
was the instructor - I ended up having to call the FBO to tow me back to
the tie down line.

It wasn't until some hours later that it hit me - during the forced
approach, I had the throttle at idle, the mixture at rich and the boost
pump on. Which is exactly how you prime it for a cold start - except for
starting you only do it for about 3 seconds, and this was for the whole
duration of the forced approach. So I figure I probably flooded it. So
what's the answer? Do you turn off the boost pump when doing practice
forced approaches? What about normal approaches? Does that mean turning
on the boost pump has to become a normal action on go-arounds and touch
and goes?

--
Paul Tomblin http://blog.xcski.com/
You'll get access to my computer room right after you pry the Halon test
key out of my cold, lifeless hands.
-- Simon Travaglia

"Paul Tomblin" wrote in message
...
I was doing my BFR last night in my club's Piper Lance (in case you're not
familiar: it has retractable gear and a IO-540 fuel injected engine). We
finished up with a bunch of touch and goes, demonstrating short, soft,
etc. The last landing, the instructor pulled the throttle and had me do a
forced landing. I had no trouble making the runway, and rolled off the
runway and over the hold short line. As I was tuning the ground frequency
on the radio, the engine died. And I was unable to restart it and neither
was the instructor - I ended up having to call the FBO to tow me back to
the tie down line.

It wasn't until some hours later that it hit me - during the forced
approach, I had the throttle at idle, the mixture at rich and the boost
pump on. Which is exactly how you prime it for a cold start - except for
starting you only do it for about 3 seconds, and this was for the whole
duration of the forced approach. So I figure I probably flooded it. So
what's the answer? Do you turn off the boost pump when doing practice
forced approaches? What about normal approaches?

Boost pump only during normal ops/normal throttle.

Does that mean turning
on the boost pump has to become a normal action on go-arounds and touch
and goes?

What does the POM say?

The last landing, the instructor pulled the throttle and had me do a
forced landing. I had no trouble making the runway, and rolled off the
runway and over the hold short line. As I was tuning the ground frequency
on the radio, the engine died.

It's a good thing Jay wasn't cleard to land behind you. That would be
another massive thread.

Jose
--
Get high on gasoline: fly an airplane.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

In article ,
(Paul Tomblin) wrote:

I was doing my BFR last night in my club's Piper Lance (in case you're not
familiar: it has retractable gear and a IO-540 fuel injected engine). We
finished up with a bunch of touch and goes, demonstrating short, soft,
etc. The last landing, the instructor pulled the throttle and had me do a
forced landing. I had no trouble making the runway, and rolled off the
runway and over the hold short line. As I was tuning the ground frequency
on the radio, the engine died. And I was unable to restart it and neither
was the instructor - I ended up having to call the FBO to tow me back to
the tie down line.

It wasn't until some hours later that it hit me - during the forced
approach, I had the throttle at idle, the mixture at rich and the boost
pump on. Which is exactly how you prime it for a cold start - except for
starting you only do it for about 3 seconds, and this was for the whole
duration of the forced approach. So I figure I probably flooded it. So
what's the answer? Do you turn off the boost pump when doing practice
forced approaches? What about normal approaches? Does that mean turning
on the boost pump has to become a normal action on go-arounds and touch
and goes?

Thanks for this one, Paul.
This situation hadn't occured to me, but it's one I could easily
encounter with either the Arrow or the Cherokee Six I fly.
Tip of the hat!

"Paul Tomblin" wrote in message
...
I was doing my BFR last night in my club's Piper Lance (in case you're not
familiar: it has retractable gear and a IO-540 fuel injected engine). We
finished up with a bunch of touch and goes, demonstrating short, soft,
etc. The last landing, the instructor pulled the throttle and had me do a
forced landing. I had no trouble making the runway, and rolled off the
runway and over the hold short line. As I was tuning the ground frequency
on the radio, the engine died. And I was unable to restart it and neither
was the instructor - I ended up having to call the FBO to tow me back to
the tie down line.

It wasn't until some hours later that it hit me - during the forced
approach, I had the throttle at idle, the mixture at rich and the boost
pump on. Which is exactly how you prime it for a cold start - except for
starting you only do it for about 3 seconds, and this was for the whole
duration of the forced approach. So I figure I probably flooded it. So
what's the answer? Do you turn off the boost pump when doing practice
forced approaches? What about normal approaches? Does that mean turning
on the boost pump has to become a normal action on go-arounds and touch
and goes?

Very interesting scenario. The procedure I was taught in the Warrior was to
turn the boost pump off at 500' AGL on the climb out. . You turn it back on
again during downwind landing checks ( 1000' AGL) , So if I was doing a go
around the boost pump would already be on. Our forced landing practice was
almost always done from about 3000 ft or higher. although a couple of times
my instructor pulled the power on downwind but before I had done the checks
, so booster pump would be off, and obviously you wouldnt turn it on again.
Occaisionally he would pull power after takeoff but just momentarily to
check that I would lower the nose immediately. So in short I have never been
faced with your situation where the power was pulled after you have set up
for landing with the boost pump on.
But it does make sense to me that this might result in flooding the engine.
I suspect you are right about turning off the boost pump, but I will be
looking out for some more experienced advice here.
Terry

"Paul Tomblin" wrote in message
...
I was doing my BFR last night in my club's Piper Lance (in case you're not
familiar: it has retractable gear and a IO-540 fuel injected engine). We
finished up with a bunch of touch and goes, demonstrating short, soft,
etc. The last landing, the instructor pulled the throttle and had me do a
forced landing. I had no trouble making the runway, and rolled off the
runway and over the hold short line. As I was tuning the ground frequency
on the radio, the engine died. And I was unable to restart it and neither
was the instructor - I ended up having to call the FBO to tow me back to
the tie down line.

It wasn't until some hours later that it hit me - during the forced
approach, I had the throttle at idle, the mixture at rich and the boost
pump on. Which is exactly how you prime it for a cold start - except for
starting you only do it for about 3 seconds, and this was for the whole
duration of the forced approach. So I figure I probably flooded it. So
what's the answer? Do you turn off the boost pump when doing practice
forced approaches? What about normal approaches? Does that mean turning
on the boost pump has to become a normal action on go-arounds and touch
and goes?

--
Paul Tomblin http://blog.xcski.com/

Did you perform the (required?) engine clearing procedures during the
decent?

What does the POH say about closed throttle decents?

Happy landings,

In a previous article, "Private" said:
Did you perform the (required?) engine clearing procedures during the
decent?

No.

What does the POH say about closed throttle decents?

Nothing. All I can find is that for normal approach you use mixture on
full and electric fuel pump on.

--
Paul Tomblin http://blog.xcski.com/
Computers are not intelligent. They only think they are.

"Paul Tomblin" wrote in message
...
In a previous article, "Private" said:
Did you perform the (required?) engine clearing procedures during the
decent?

No.


My training schools required SOP was to use carb heat (if avail.) before
(and during) and clear the engine frequntly during any extended closed
throttle operation such as engine out practice and testing. IIRC the
frequency was every 300-500ft. IIRC there is a TC requirement for clearing
during flight testing and that proper clearing is part of the task grading
as per the published Flight Test Standards. There is also a restriction on
'over-clearing' when coming up short. IIRC some examiners say that they
will perform or instruct when to clear.

What does the POH say about closed throttle decents?

Nothing. All I can find is that for normal approach you use mixture on
full and electric fuel pump on.


Is there a proceedure for rapid decent such as a passenger health prolem?

ISTM that mixture is altitude dedendant but I do not know yours. Many seem
to benifit (reduced lead fouling of spark plugs) from aggresive leaning when
operating at closed or partial throttle.

Could there be a problem with any fuel or pressure regulaing valves?

If this is a club plane regularly used for training then I suspect that this
has happened before and the club should have developed an approved
proceedure to deal with the problem.

I would be concerned about operational failure should increased power be
required for go-round or if coming up short.

Happy landings,

--
Paul Tomblin http://blog.xcski.com/
Computers are not intelligent. They only think they are.

"Private" wrote in
news:FaUQh.27133$DE1.14038@pd7urf2no:

Did you perform the (required?) engine clearing procedures during
the decent?

IIRC, Cessna POH suggests that, I don't recall it for PA32 (fuel
injected)

What does the POH say about closed throttle decents?

My Lance POH doesn't indicate anything special about closed throttle
descents.

--

You call it a boost pump, this is a turbocharged engine?
Was it on high or low?

Paul Tomblin wrote:
I was doing my BFR last night in my club's Piper Lance (in case you're not
familiar: it has retractable gear and a IO-540 fuel injected engine). We
finished up with a bunch of touch and goes, demonstrating short, soft,
etc. The last landing, the instructor pulled the throttle and had me do a
forced landing. I had no trouble making the runway, and rolled off the
runway and over the hold short line. As I was tuning the ground frequency
on the radio, the engine died. And I was unable to restart it and neither
was the instructor - I ended up having to call the FBO to tow me back to
the tie down line.

It wasn't until some hours later that it hit me - during the forced
approach, I had the throttle at idle, the mixture at rich and the boost
pump on. Which is exactly how you prime it for a cold start - except for
starting you only do it for about 3 seconds, and this was for the whole
duration of the forced approach. So I figure I probably flooded it. So
what's the answer? Do you turn off the boost pump when doing practice
forced approaches? What about normal approaches? Does that mean turning
on the boost pump has to become a normal action on go-arounds and touch
and goes?