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Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam



 
 
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  #481  
Old July 19th 04, 04:49 PM
Ed Rasimus
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On 18 Jul 2004 23:06:39 -0700, (Fred the Red
Shirt) wrote:

(Steve Mellenthin) wrote in message ...

Speaking out against a war takes courage but doing so in a way that encourages
the enemy, raises the level of danger to the men still in the line of fire, and
denigrates the service record of those who have served is not an act of
courage, it is an act of self serving political gratuity.


Absent the speeches made by Kerry and others like him how much longer
would American forces have remained in Vietnam? How many more would
have died, been wounded or captured. How many more Vietnamese would
have died? How much longer would the POWs have had to wait for
repatriation?


You need to read some good history of the war and stop reading Terry
McAullife dispatches.

Kerry was testifying before the Senate in 1971. Nixon had been elected
in 1968 and initiated his "Vietnamization" policy to draw down US
troop strength and turn over the war to the ARVN. By April of '71, the
US force had been reduced by half, bombing of NVN had been in hiatus
since 1968.

Arguably the testimony of Kerry encouraged the aggressiveness of the
NVA and led to the increased infiltration that led to the commencement
of Linebacker in May of '72, the siege of An Loch, the intensification
of the siege of Khe Sanh and the final destruction of Hue. The
encouragement of the NV probably increased the destruction rather than
reducing it.

The current government of Vietnam has estimated that we killed 1.4
million of their soldiers. That does not include wounded soldiers
or civilians killed or wounded. The United Staes won every militarily
significant battle of the Vietnam war. And still the communists
did not give up. Kerry realized that the war in Vietnam could not
be won by military means. It could only have been prolonged.


Once again the attribution of such a strategic view to a Lt(j.g.)
aboard a boat in MR IV is incredible.

Of course the "current goverment of Vietnam" would have a high
estimate--they are in Hanoi. They were the enemy. That was who we were
trying to kill!

We do not know the answers to the questions I posed above because
men like Kerry did speak out. We did pull out in 1973 and the
surviving POWs did come home. It has been argued that live POWS
were held back by the Vietnamese and others as hostages or slaves
but really, would fewer have been withheld had we remained in the
war longer?


GMAFB! We started our pullout in '68. Despite Kerry's best efforts to
encourage capitulation which wouldn't have resulted in a return of the
POWs we continued negotiation, brought military pressure to bear in
Linebacker I/II and succeeded in getting an incredibly rapid return of
the POWs. It wasn't BECAUSE of Kerry, it was IN SPITE OF him.

What good would Kerry have done by remaining silent, or by echoing
the lies of his government?


He might now be accepted in his newly desired role of American hero.

And, your acceptance of the concept of "the lies of his government"
should be carefully examined.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8
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  #482  
Old July 19th 04, 05:01 PM
Ed Rasimus
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On Mon, 19 Jul 2004 13:04:34 GMT,
(John S. Shinal) wrote:

(BUFDRVR) wrote:
I'm not sure who Chuckie is, but there are a few civilian owned T-38s.


Chuck Thornton owned one that was assembled from three wrecked
T-38 airframes purchased surplus. He allegedly really torqued some
people off over that since he had tried to buy one several times and
been rebuffed. It was painted like an Agressor from Nellis, in a
blue/white/gray scheme that would be hard to spot in the air.


Hard to imagine enough salvageable from three wrecks to put together a
flyable T-38. The magnesium under body and the honeycomb wing
structure would be hard to repair. The seats and the engines would be
the hardest parts to get.

As for the paint job, if his is the one that's been seen on several TV
commercials, it's done in gloss while the Aggressor T-38s were all
flat. The Nellis T-38 Aggressors came in all colors including the
basic white as well as blues, grays, browns and "lizard."

We got them all at Holloman while I was there. Over the NM desert, the
most effective was the brown.

In '83 we got the entire AT-38 fleet painted in a standard
blue-blue-gray gloss camo. That's still what is used by the 435th
doing the fighter lead-in portion of the SUPT syllabus.

The gossip is that MiG 17s are more of a fun flyer, with fewer
maintenance hours per flight hour, and an easy engine to deal with. I
think spins in the MiG 17 are unrecoverable, though.


Dunno. Never got a -17 flight, but it would be hard to pack more
performance into a little airplane than a T-38. Spins in a T-38 are
unrecoverable as well, but also virtually unattainable. The airplane
will spin, but it is a decidedly unnatural act and AFAIK only been
accomplished in very abusive flight testing at Edwards.



Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8
  #486  
Old July 19th 04, 06:31 PM
ian maclure
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On Mon, 19 Jul 2004 11:13:17 +0000, WalterM140 wrote:

Not that it really matters because what should matter is who would best lead
the country not so much as 35 year old history.


Bush has been a disastrous failure as president.


Sez you.

If Bush wins in November, this country will become even more of a police state.


How soon you forget Klintoon's musings about how everyone was
too concerned about their rights.
More than once it had to be pointed out to him that the
Constitution wasn't a list of suggestions.
And that was without a war on.

If Bush wins in November our national flag and national honor will continue to
trail in the dust.


No, we aren't aren't going to listen to the French, Germans, and
Russians.

If Bush wins in November we will still be hated and mistrusted around the
world.


Hello, the gang who started the whole ball rolling don't give
a rats ass. Remember, much of the planning got 9/11 occurred
before 2001.

If Bush wins in November, we will be less safe than we are now.


Sez the Dumbocreeps. If you're so concerned about your safety,
convert to Islam and move to Saudi Arabia. Than at least, Al-Qaeda
might leave you alone ( as long as your beard is the correct length
and you do nothing but eat, ****, and pray ).

If Bush wins in November, he'll still be sucking money out of the
middle class to save the bank rolls of the rich and super rich.


The rich and super-rich sounds like Fratman and Bobbin to
me.

If Bush wins in November our grotesquesly maladroit foreign policies will
continue.


"maladroit"? OK, now I know you're channeling somebody.

If Bush wins in November, Jeb will be right behind him.


As I've explained before, it'll be Bush 44, Bush 45 (Mrs W),
Bush 46 ( Mizz Jeb ), Bush 47/49, Bush 48/50 ( the twins
alternating terms as Prez & VP )

Those ******* Republicans have got to go.


Hey Hey!
Ho Ho!
What kind of drugs are you on.
Or is the problem you aren't on your meds?

IBM



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  #487  
Old July 19th 04, 06:51 PM
ian maclure
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On Mon, 19 Jul 2004 08:56:11 +0000, WalterM140 wrote:

Bush was not elected. He was appointed. We'll fix that in November.



Elected by the Congress, like all Presidents in a joint session that
most Americans regard as a formality if they know about it at all.


Michael Moore uses some footage in "Fahrenheit 911" from the 2000 certification
of Florida's elctoral votes in the Senate. They could have been challenged if
any one senator had agreed to co-sign the documentation provided by black
members of Congress.


Would this be the Senate that contained something like 45-50
Democrats? None of whome could be inveigled into signing on?
Raises some interesting questions don't you think?

Since you seem pretty familiar with this, what do you think about the rationale
the Supreme Court used to close out the Florida recount?


They were correct.

My understanding is that the Court has usually deferred to state courts in
interpreting state constitutions. But here, they took the issue away from the
state court and basically declared Bush the winner.


When State Courts exceed their authority, the USSC can and will spank
them.

In "F-911" you can hear Congresswoman Corrine Brown say that 16,000 of her
constituents had been illegally disinfranchised in Duvall County.


And what would you expect a sore loser to say.
I imagine she was fine with things as they were as long as she
liked the result.

Bush is already gearing up to steal this election. Karl Rove, his
communication director worked with Donald Segretti, who served time in prison
for his activities in the 1972 campaign. Bush actually has Nixon
adminstration officals working for him. These include Cheney and Rumsfeld.


You seem to have your facts mixed up. It was the Democraps who recruited
a family dynasty of elctoral thieves ( the Daley boys ) to go in and
fix the results. Seems the Daleys don't do too well out of their own
ecosystem.

The Republican Party dirty tricks organization is hard at work and has been
since Nixon's time.


This from a partisan of those who brought us Tammany Hall, and Dumbocrip
wardheelers.

IBM

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  #488  
Old July 19th 04, 06:55 PM
ian maclure
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On Sun, 18 Jul 2004 23:34:06 -0700, Fred the Red Shirt wrote:

[snip]

Elected by the Congress, like all Presidents in a joint session that
most Americans regard as a formality if they know about it at all.


Not quite.
The size of the electoral college is approximately the same
as Congress ( both houses ).
Congress only gets a direct vote if the Electoral College is
a dead heat.

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  #489  
Old July 19th 04, 06:58 PM
ian maclure
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On Sun, 18 Jul 2004 23:31:24 -0700, Fred the Red Shirt wrote:

[snip]

Bernie Kozar, former QB of the Cleveland Browns graduated from a
4-year college after two years. He did it because he was smart
enough to complete a four-year program in two years. I also knew
a girl in college who got her microbilogy degree in three years.


Which oddly enough is the sort of thing that gets mentioned
in biographies.
Don't recall seeing that in Bobbin's bio.

IBM

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  #490  
Old July 19th 04, 06:58 PM
ian maclure
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On Mon, 19 Jul 2004 01:14:56 -0500, Jack wrote:

Fred the Red Shirt wrote:

What good would Kerry have done by remaining silent, or by echoing
the lies of his government?


Kerry was hardly a Canary in a coal mine by that time, but just another
silver spoon sucker with political ambitions looking for a bandwagon to
ride, with no regard for those he defamed.


In short, Fratman was a Kape Kod Kommunist.

IBM

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