Some bad controllers

Newps wrote:


Doug Rinks wrote:

Jeff,
A couple things.. I think out of fairness to the controller the only
thing which you can say is that he was not busy on your freqency. It
is possible that he was busy on another freqency which you were unable
to hear,


No, it's not possible. If you cannot hear the controller then he is not
saying anything.


Not even on a landline to another facility?

Matt

(Doug Rinks) writes:

A couple things.. I think out of fairness to the controller the only
thing which you can say is that he was not busy on your freqency. It
is possible that he was busy on another freqency which you were unable
to hear, or he could have been busy coordinating your clearance, or
maybe even coordinating departures, so you would not create a problem
for them. You just never know without seeing the other side.

The thing to remember here is that you were VFR, and asked to pickup
your IFR clearance in the air. That by definition gives you less
priority in the system compared to other already IFR aircraft. Maybe
the lesson here is not to pickup your clearance in a terminal area,
but rather do it from the center prior to entering the TRACON's
airspace. I can assure you that the controller wasn't blaming the
delay on saturation for no reason.. there was obviously saturation
either in his sector, or in a sector which was ahead, and/or below
you.

I once tried to get a clearance from PVD approach on a
popup from Newport on a CAVU night. There wasn't an
airplane in the sky except us and we were told there'd
be a 45 minute delay. And PVD isn't that busy at the
worst of times...

"Everett M. Greene" wrote in message
...
I once tried to get a clearance from PVD approach on a
popup from Newport on a CAVU night. There wasn't an
airplane in the sky except us and we were told there'd
be a 45 minute delay. And PVD isn't that busy at the
worst of times...

[Old Adage] "Am I up here so you can be down there, or are you down there so
I can be up here?"

I have received IFR requests from LAS and from SoCal, I have received a IFR
departures from long beach, riverside and chino. Each time it was from the
tower or CD, not through FSS.

I dont know if its up to the controller or not on how they process IFR
requests, but this was not a pop up, he had my flight plan.
In hind site, I know now not to expect to be able to do this in the phoenix
area, and to get any clearance I need going into phoenix from ABQ.

"Everett M. Greene" wrote:

(Doug Rinks) writes:

A couple things.. I think out of fairness to the controller the only
thing which you can say is that he was not busy on your freqency. It
is possible that he was busy on another freqency which you were unable
to hear, or he could have been busy coordinating your clearance, or
maybe even coordinating departures, so you would not create a problem
for them. You just never know without seeing the other side.

The thing to remember here is that you were VFR, and asked to pickup
your IFR clearance in the air. That by definition gives you less
priority in the system compared to other already IFR aircraft. Maybe
the lesson here is not to pickup your clearance in a terminal area,
but rather do it from the center prior to entering the TRACON's
airspace. I can assure you that the controller wasn't blaming the
delay on saturation for no reason.. there was obviously saturation
either in his sector, or in a sector which was ahead, and/or below
you.

I once tried to get a clearance from PVD approach on a
popup from Newport on a CAVU night. There wasn't an
airplane in the sky except us and we were told there'd
be a 45 minute delay. And PVD isn't that busy at the
worst of times...

Jeff wrote in message ...
I dont know if its up to the controller or not on how they process IFR
requests, but this was not a pop up, he had my flight plan.

Jeff, not meaning to pick on you, but this is one of the points:

How do you know he had your flight plan?

If you filed an IFR flight plan originating in ABQ airspace, the
Phoenix TRACON wouldn't have your flight plan or a strip on you or
any other info about you, until the ATC facility where your flight
plan originated "departs" you. I didn't know this until we were
"bitten" in a somewhat similar way, departing in ZKC airspace and
trying to pick up a clearance from T75 (Stl Tracon) and I followed
up on it. Even though we departed from an airport quite close to
T75 they wouldn't get a thing on us until ZKC "departed" us, the
controller had to call ZKC. Depending on the airspace maybe
figure out who to call.

In hind site, I know now not to expect to be able to do this in the phoenix
area, and to get any clearance I need going into phoenix from ABQ.

Well, at the least, I would remain where you're comfortable while
you get the situation sorted out...or make sure you file an IFR plan
which originates somewhere inside PHX airspace so they'll definately
have your plan.

Just my $0.02,
Sydney

Yeah, and if you DIDN'T flile a flightplan, tell 'em you did, at a FSS
Far, Far Away.

(Snowbird) wrote in message . com...
Jeff wrote in message ...
I dont know if its up to the controller or not on how they process IFR
requests, but this was not a pop up, he had my flight plan.

Jeff, not meaning to pick on you, but this is one of the points:

How do you know he had your flight plan?

If you filed an IFR flight plan originating in ABQ airspace, the
Phoenix TRACON wouldn't have your flight plan or a strip on you or
any other info about you, until the ATC facility where your flight
plan originated "departs" you. I didn't know this until we were
"bitten" in a somewhat similar way, departing in ZKC airspace and
trying to pick up a clearance from T75 (Stl Tracon) and I followed
up on it. Even though we departed from an airport quite close to
T75 they wouldn't get a thing on us until ZKC "departed" us, the
controller had to call ZKC. Depending on the airspace maybe
figure out who to call.

In hind site, I know now not to expect to be able to do this in the phoenix
area, and to get any clearance I need going into phoenix from ABQ.

Well, at the least, I would remain where you're comfortable while
you get the situation sorted out...or make sure you file an IFR plan
which originates somewhere inside PHX airspace so they'll definately
have your plan.

Just my $0.02,
Sydney

If you are not prepared to fly in "nasty clouds" then you have no business
filing, requesting or flying IFR.

Mike
MU-2


"Jeff" wrote in message
...
Just a quick note to any of you guys flying IFR into the phoenix area.
I just got back from a trip to phoenix from vegas, I had filed a
composit flgiht plan, VFR untill I was by phoenix then I would request
my IFR if it was needed since FSS reported overcast at 2700 and few at
600.

freezing level was 7000-8000, MEA was 9000 in some parts and 10,000
during other parts of route. I chose VFR the first part of the flight so
I could have the latitude to dodge clouds to prevent icing.

all went fine, I got handed off to phoenix approach, I was at 12,000 ft
on top of the layer, no way into phoenix except through that mess
either. So I asked phoenix for my IFR and he said I was cleared into
class B and to decend to 7000 and he would look for my clearence. I
start my decent, between some clouds and he comes back and says to turn
toward carefree if I want to pick up my IFR because he was to busy. no
one was talking except me.
then he told me to stay clear of class B. so here I am now down from my
safe altitude above the clouds, a nitwit controller, I zig zag between
some clouds and call him again, he says he cant see me on radar and to
turn towards carefree, so I figured I would follow the valley under some
clouds, then my wife says dont turn that way, that mountain is covered
by clouds, so I get back on the radio and tell the controller he got me
down here, I amnow stuck and I needed my clearence or I would be in
trouble. He finally said, ok, and gave it to me. man that guy ****ed me
off. there was another guy trying to do the same thing as me in a
cessna, right after I got my clearence, and the controller told him to
stay at 2500 ft and turn towards carefree because he was "saturated"
with IFR departures. Yet no one else was talking. then here I am in
these nasty clouds, outside temp about -2, he gives me to decend to
6000, then right after that screams at me traffic alert decend to 5000
...so I am in total IMC diving down to 5000 ft.. then he does not want
me to do the ILS, he tells me to decend to 2700 ft and to be prepared
for the visual. man what a crappy flight - and I didnt even tell you
about the 1500 fpm downdraft or when my engine started losing power.

that controller still has me ****ed off and its 2 days later.

and how was I not prepared ?


Mike Rapoport wrote:

If you are not prepared to fly in "nasty clouds" then you have no business
filing, requesting or flying IFR.

Mike
MU-2

"Jeff" wrote in message
...
Just a quick note to any of you guys flying IFR into the phoenix area.
I just got back from a trip to phoenix from vegas, I had filed a
composit flgiht plan, VFR untill I was by phoenix then I would request
my IFR if it was needed since FSS reported overcast at 2700 and few at
600.

freezing level was 7000-8000, MEA was 9000 in some parts and 10,000
during other parts of route. I chose VFR the first part of the flight so
I could have the latitude to dodge clouds to prevent icing.

all went fine, I got handed off to phoenix approach, I was at 12,000 ft
on top of the layer, no way into phoenix except through that mess
either. So I asked phoenix for my IFR and he said I was cleared into
class B and to decend to 7000 and he would look for my clearence. I
start my decent, between some clouds and he comes back and says to turn
toward carefree if I want to pick up my IFR because he was to busy. no
one was talking except me.
then he told me to stay clear of class B. so here I am now down from my
safe altitude above the clouds, a nitwit controller, I zig zag between
some clouds and call him again, he says he cant see me on radar and to
turn towards carefree, so I figured I would follow the valley under some
clouds, then my wife says dont turn that way, that mountain is covered
by clouds, so I get back on the radio and tell the controller he got me
down here, I amnow stuck and I needed my clearence or I would be in
trouble. He finally said, ok, and gave it to me. man that guy ****ed me
off. there was another guy trying to do the same thing as me in a
cessna, right after I got my clearence, and the controller told him to
stay at 2500 ft and turn towards carefree because he was "saturated"
with IFR departures. Yet no one else was talking. then here I am in
these nasty clouds, outside temp about -2, he gives me to decend to
6000, then right after that screams at me traffic alert decend to 5000
...so I am in total IMC diving down to 5000 ft.. then he does not want
me to do the ILS, he tells me to decend to 2700 ft and to be prepared
for the visual. man what a crappy flight - and I didnt even tell you
about the 1500 fpm downdraft or when my engine started losing power.

that controller still has me ****ed off and its 2 days later.

Maybe prepared is not the right word but you make a point of saying that
you:flew most of the trip VFR to aviod ice and yet you filed IFR into class
B airspace and complained about flying in clouds. You accepted the descent
to 7000 (amongst the clouds) while VFR. So basically you seem to be
complaining about not getting your clearance right away, having to fly IFR
in clouds and not getting the ILS in VMC. You also complain that he made
you descend for traffic, separating traffic is the controllers primary job.

If you are not comfortable flying in icing clouds then don't file IFR in
class B airspace when the temp is below freezing. Most of your issues where
of your own making and you should accept responsibilty for them instead of
blaming someone else. It is odd that the controller said that he was busy
on a quiet freq.

Mike
MU-2


"Jeff" wrote in message
...
and how was I not prepared ?


Mike Rapoport wrote:

If you are not prepared to fly in "nasty clouds" then you have no
business
filing, requesting or flying IFR.

Mike
MU-2

"Jeff" wrote in message
...
Just a quick note to any of you guys flying IFR into the phoenix area.
I just got back from a trip to phoenix from vegas, I had filed a
composit flgiht plan, VFR untill I was by phoenix then I would request
my IFR if it was needed since FSS reported overcast at 2700 and few at
600.

freezing level was 7000-8000, MEA was 9000 in some parts and 10,000
during other parts of route. I chose VFR the first part of the flight
so
I could have the latitude to dodge clouds to prevent icing.

all went fine, I got handed off to phoenix approach, I was at 12,000
ft
on top of the layer, no way into phoenix except through that mess
either. So I asked phoenix for my IFR and he said I was cleared into
class B and to decend to 7000 and he would look for my clearence. I
start my decent, between some clouds and he comes back and says to
turn
toward carefree if I want to pick up my IFR because he was to busy.
no
one was talking except me.
then he told me to stay clear of class B. so here I am now down from
my
safe altitude above the clouds, a nitwit controller, I zig zag between
some clouds and call him again, he says he cant see me on radar and to
turn towards carefree, so I figured I would follow the valley under
some
clouds, then my wife says dont turn that way, that mountain is covered
by clouds, so I get back on the radio and tell the controller he got
me
down here, I amnow stuck and I needed my clearence or I would be in
trouble. He finally said, ok, and gave it to me. man that guy ****ed
me
off. there was another guy trying to do the same thing as me in a
cessna, right after I got my clearence, and the controller told him to
stay at 2500 ft and turn towards carefree because he was "saturated"
with IFR departures. Yet no one else was talking. then here I am in
these nasty clouds, outside temp about -2, he gives me to decend to
6000, then right after that screams at me traffic alert decend to 5000
...so I am in total IMC diving down to 5000 ft.. then he does not
want
me to do the ILS, he tells me to decend to 2700 ft and to be prepared
for the visual. man what a crappy flight - and I didnt even tell you
about the 1500 fpm downdraft or when my engine started losing power.

that controller still has me ****ed off and its 2 days later.

when did I complain about flying in the clouds?
who complained about not getting the ILS in VMC ?
who said I was not comfortable with flying in the clouds?

I think you misread some things.


Mike Rapoport wrote:

Maybe prepared is not the right word but you make a point of saying that
you:flew most of the trip VFR to aviod ice and yet you filed IFR into class
B airspace and complained about flying in clouds. You accepted the descent
to 7000 (amongst the clouds) while VFR. So basically you seem to be
complaining about not getting your clearance right away, having to fly IFR
in clouds and not getting the ILS in VMC. You also complain that he made
you descend for traffic, separating traffic is the controllers primary job.

If you are not comfortable flying in icing clouds then don't file IFR in
class B airspace when the temp is below freezing. Most of your issues where
of your own making and you should accept responsibilty for them instead of
blaming someone else. It is odd that the controller said that he was busy
on a quiet freq.

Mike
MU-2

"Jeff" wrote in message
...
and how was I not prepared ?


Mike Rapoport wrote:

If you are not prepared to fly in "nasty clouds" then you have no
business
filing, requesting or flying IFR.

Mike
MU-2

"Jeff" wrote in message
...
Just a quick note to any of you guys flying IFR into the phoenix area.
I just got back from a trip to phoenix from vegas, I had filed a
composit flgiht plan, VFR untill I was by phoenix then I would request
my IFR if it was needed since FSS reported overcast at 2700 and few at
600.

freezing level was 7000-8000, MEA was 9000 in some parts and 10,000
during other parts of route. I chose VFR the first part of the flight
so
I could have the latitude to dodge clouds to prevent icing.

all went fine, I got handed off to phoenix approach, I was at 12,000
ft
on top of the layer, no way into phoenix except through that mess
either. So I asked phoenix for my IFR and he said I was cleared into
class B and to decend to 7000 and he would look for my clearence. I
start my decent, between some clouds and he comes back and says to
turn
toward carefree if I want to pick up my IFR because he was to busy.
no
one was talking except me.
then he told me to stay clear of class B. so here I am now down from
my
safe altitude above the clouds, a nitwit controller, I zig zag between
some clouds and call him again, he says he cant see me on radar and to
turn towards carefree, so I figured I would follow the valley under
some
clouds, then my wife says dont turn that way, that mountain is covered
by clouds, so I get back on the radio and tell the controller he got
me
down here, I amnow stuck and I needed my clearence or I would be in
trouble. He finally said, ok, and gave it to me. man that guy ****ed
me
off. there was another guy trying to do the same thing as me in a
cessna, right after I got my clearence, and the controller told him to
stay at 2500 ft and turn towards carefree because he was "saturated"
with IFR departures. Yet no one else was talking. then here I am in
these nasty clouds, outside temp about -2, he gives me to decend to
6000, then right after that screams at me traffic alert decend to 5000
...so I am in total IMC diving down to 5000 ft.. then he does not
want
me to do the ILS, he tells me to decend to 2700 ft and to be prepared
for the visual. man what a crappy flight - and I didnt even tell you
about the 1500 fpm downdraft or when my engine started losing power.

that controller still has me ****ed off and its 2 days later.