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The Unmanned Combat Air System Carrier Demonstration Program: A New Dawn for Naval Aviation?



 
 
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  #11  
Old July 15th 07, 09:56 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.military.naval,sci.military.naval
BlackBeard
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Posts: 79
Default The Unmanned Combat Air System Carrier Demonstration Program: A New Dawn for Naval Aviation?

On Jul 15, 12:15 pm, "John Carrier" wrote:

Not really. The sensor suite and latency in control doesn't make these
things ideal for turning and burning. Higher fuel fraction leads to greater
persistency, elimination of crew makes stealth easier to achieve and the
asset better for high threat environments. A cheaper, smaller and more
readily disposable interdiction tool. The price is you've eliminated the
decision maker in the cockpit, something you can't always and wouldn't
always want to do.

R / John


With respect to your years of experience John I've heard that
argument and agree there will always be situations that back it. But
I've also seen counter examples.
Harlan Reep used to fly as a contractor here for decades. He was a
combat vet and normally flew the drones in the live A/A tests.
Occasionaly he would fly other targets in non-shooting tests and flew
for us several times when I was working in flight test (89-91.)
I remember near the end of his career he flew a QF-86 against a
couple Hornets. It was the last Sabre drone in our inventory so there
was a lot of attention/nostalgia on the test. It was planned that the
Sabre would be shot down even if it survived the test so both Hornets
went up with the test missiles and rounds for the cannon.
In a nutshell the Sabre survived the test, and then they allowed
players to go into the shootdown with Harlan being allowed to 'do his
best' to evade. He did, and although there was some hits, the Hornets
landed with empty magazines and racks. IIRC Harlan crashed the drone
because they didn't want to take the chance that thee was damage to
the drone that would cause a crash on landing. They featured a story
on the encounter in the Base paper so it wasn't just O'club stories
that I remember this from. Of course, I _do_ remember some of the
O'club excuses being offered that week (ie. he didn't have to
worry about g-block, he could 'fly the wings off... etc.)

All in all it made a great day for all the nostalgiac people who had
been involved with the Sabre's during their years of use as targets
here at the Lake.

BB

I guess everybody has some mountain to climb.
It's just fate whether you live in Kansas or Tibet...



  #12  
Old July 15th 07, 10:49 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.military.naval,sci.military.naval
John Carrier
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 85
Default The Unmanned Combat Air System Carrier Demonstration Program: A New Dawn for Naval Aviation?


"BlackBeard" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Jul 15, 12:15 pm, "John Carrier" wrote:

Not really. The sensor suite and latency in control doesn't make these
things ideal for turning and burning. Higher fuel fraction leads to
greater
persistency, elimination of crew makes stealth easier to achieve and the
asset better for high threat environments. A cheaper, smaller and more
readily disposable interdiction tool. The price is you've eliminated the
decision maker in the cockpit, something you can't always and wouldn't
always want to do.

R / John


With respect to your years of experience John I've heard that
argument and agree there will always be situations that back it. But
I've also seen counter examples.
Harlan Reep used to fly as a contractor here for decades. He was a
combat vet and normally flew the drones in the live A/A tests.
Occasionaly he would fly other targets in non-shooting tests and flew
for us several times when I was working in flight test (89-91.)
I remember near the end of his career he flew a QF-86 against a
couple Hornets. It was the last Sabre drone in our inventory so there
was a lot of attention/nostalgia on the test. It was planned that the
Sabre would be shot down even if it survived the test so both Hornets
went up with the test missiles and rounds for the cannon.
In a nutshell the Sabre survived the test, and then they allowed
players to go into the shootdown with Harlan being allowed to 'do his
best' to evade. He did, and although there was some hits, the Hornets
landed with empty magazines and racks. IIRC Harlan crashed the drone
because they didn't want to take the chance that thee was damage to
the drone that would cause a crash on landing. They featured a story
on the encounter in the Base paper so it wasn't just O'club stories
that I remember this from. Of course, I _do_ remember some of the
O'club excuses being offered that week (ie. he didn't have to
worry about g-block, he could 'fly the wings off... etc.)

All in all it made a great day for all the nostalgiac people who had
been involved with the Sabre's during their years of use as targets
here at the Lake.


A somewhat simpler exercise with latency NOT a problem. I was thinking on
the order of a machine being maneuvered somewhere in Afghanistan by a driver
in Colo Springs. When you consider the distances, even at the speed of
light the satellite relay and delay offer enough time to make the job
difficult. Perhaps with sufficient nintendo skills, that might be overcome.

R / John


  #13  
Old July 16th 07, 02:52 AM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.military.naval,sci.military.naval
BlackBeard
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 79
Default The Unmanned Combat Air System Carrier Demonstration Program: A New Dawn for Naval Aviation?

On Jul 15, 2:49 pm, "John Carrier" wrote:

A somewhat simpler exercise with latency NOT a problem. I was thinking on
the order of a machine being maneuvered somewhere in Afghanistan by a driver
in Colo Springs. When you consider the distances, even at the speed of
light the satellite relay and delay offer enough time to make the job
difficult. Perhaps with sufficient nintendo skills, that might be overcome.


Perhaps you are right. For the record I believe we are a very long
way away from the 'pilotless air battle' scenario. But I can't help
but wonder if the scales will tip when technology allows virtual
cockpits or other devices that can let the remote pilot obtain SA
comparable or better than piloted vehicles. One pilot in the virtual
cockpit and 3 WSO's monitoring sensors and aux systems? An independent
rear-facing gunner or two (bring back the TBF
If you can build a half-dozen small UCAV's (RPV's) for the price of
one JSF and pilot, any latency problems might be negated by the
ability to send up 3v1. Then if everyone moves to RPV's the the
latency problems balance each other out.
Just some thoughts...

BB

I guess everybody has some mountain to climb.
It's just fate whether you live in Kansas or Tibet...



  #14  
Old July 16th 07, 03:48 AM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.military.naval,sci.military.naval
Kerryn Offord
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 21
Default The Unmanned Combat Air System Carrier Demonstration Program:A New Dawn for Naval Aviation?

John Carrier wrote:
SNIP

A somewhat simpler exercise with latency NOT a problem. I was thinking on
the order of a machine being maneuvered somewhere in Afghanistan by a driver
in Colo Springs. When you consider the distances, even at the speed of
light the satellite relay and delay offer enough time to make the job
difficult. Perhaps with sufficient nintendo skills, that might be overcome.

R / John



Apparently they've done/tried to use simulators in Australia vs
simulators in USA (F/A-18) for air combat..

The latency was a problem...

It doesn't matter how good your "nintendo skills" are.. You can't get
information there/back fast enough to do real time combat
  #15  
Old July 16th 07, 05:41 AM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.military.naval,sci.military.naval
BlackBeard
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 79
Default The Unmanned Combat Air System Carrier Demonstration Program: A New Dawn for Naval Aviation?

On Jul 15, 7:48 pm, Kerryn Offord wrote:


Not air combat, but a kissin' cousin...

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20070715/D8QD61V80.html

The new 'Reapers' being deployed.

BB

I guess everybody has some mountain to climb.
It's just fate whether you live in Kansas or Tibet...

  #16  
Old July 16th 07, 05:05 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.military.naval,sci.military.naval
Harry Andreas
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 52
Default The Unmanned Combat Air System Carrier Demonstration Program: A New Dawn for Naval Aviation?

In article .com,
BlackBeard wrote:

On Jul 15, 7:48 pm, Kerryn Offord wrote:


Not air combat, but a kissin' cousin...

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20070715/D8QD61V80.html

The new 'Reapers' being deployed.


This is an interesting topic.
It reminds me of the first "stealth ship" that Lockheed built.
IIRC no one in the Navy wanted to command such a ship.
The problem was not technical, it was sociological.
Promotion is based on how many men are under your command.
The stealth ship had a radically smaller crew. So despite it's
greater capability, the general concensus was that if you captained
it you would be at a disadvantage career-wise.

I wonder if the same factors are at play here.
How many men make up a UCAV airwing, versus a manned wing?

--
Harry Andreas
Engineering raconteur
 




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