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#11
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Allen wrote:
I was always told the higher octane burns faster, and is consumed in a shorter duration, thus a lower temperature. Other way 'round on the burn rate. From a motorcycle performance site - "The higher the octane, the slower the speed of the burn; the lower the octane the faster the burn. If the burn is too fast, uncontrolled combustion can occur. This most often is heard as “pinging” and is commonly referred to as detonation. This is because instead of burning through top dead center of the combustion stroke, the entire charge is ignited too early and explodes in the chamber and acts as a bomb. Conversely, if the speed of the burn is too slow, it continues after the useful work can be done in the motor and manifests itself as poor throttle response, reduced power output and increased emissions and fuel consumption. An engineering fact: THE MOST HORSEPOWER IS MADE AT THE THRESHOLD OF DETONATION. We have often gained horsepower on the dyno and felt improved starting and driveability going from Premium grade gas to Regular. This change was recently quantified in a customer’s Ducati M900 by reducing the cranking time to start-up from 15 to 3 revolutions, although part of the improvement is explained below." George Patterson Why do men's hearts beat faster, knees get weak, throats become dry, and they think irrationally when a woman wears leather clothing? Because she smells like a new truck. |
#12
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I understand that octane is really a measure of the resistance to self
ignition in the pressure/temperature map. High temperatures or high pressures will cause self ignition (actually this is detonation), but octane gives us a way to measure the combinations of pressure and temperature that also causes self ignition. It isn't measured directly but instead octane is measured as an equivalent fuel mixture based evaluation using an extra rugged variable compression ratio lab engine under various conditions. As the piston approaches TDC, the pressures and temperatures in the cylinder rise due to adiabatic compression. If the pressure-temperature combination ever reaches the limit supposedly defined in the above map, the whole air-fuel charge detonates violently. The ignition is not controlled by the magneto anymore as the whole charge expolodes at once. With detonation, the turbulence inside the cylinder is so violent that the combustion boundary layer next to the cylinder head is scrubbed away, causing the cylinder head to receive even more heat - which quickly leads to a runaway situation. I doubt octane has anything to do with the rate of flame propagation except that if detonation should occur, there really isn't a flame front. Pinging is different. With it there is charge ignition from non-sparkplug sources that are usually the glowing (or at least extra hot) embers inside the combustion chamber. These multiple ignition sources cause the pressures to rise more rapidly than simply the spark ignition, and things could deteriorate into detonation if it persists long enough. With pinging there is still a flame front, although it is from more sources so the pressures will rise more quickly. It has taken a long time for me to understand the difference between detonation and pinging. Detonation quickly wrecks engines and grossly feeds on itself. |
#13
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nrp wrote: It has taken a long time for me to understand the difference between detonation and pinging. Detonation quickly wrecks engines and grossly feeds on itself. Pinging is the knocking sound you hear when the air fuel mixture ignites or explodes prematurely when the piston is still compressing the mixture. I think the effect you describe as pinging is commonly called pre-ignition. It differs from detonation in that there is an alternate ignition source in the cylinder. Both pre-ignition and detonation can cause an engine to ping or knock. In an aircraft engine, detonation usually comes from using gasoline with a lower than required octane rating (a.k.a. anti-knock index). Pre-ignition is usually the results of cylinder contamination by bits of carbon, or ash residue from using automotive type oils. John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180) |
#14
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On 21 Jun 2005 11:44:26 -0700, "nrp" wrote:
As the piston approaches TDC, the pressures and temperatures in the cylinder rise due to adiabatic compression. If the pressure-temperature combination ever reaches the limit supposedly defined in the above map, the whole air-fuel charge detonates violently. The ignition is not controlled by the magneto anymore as the whole charge expolodes at once. With detonation, the turbulence inside the cylinder is so violent that the combustion boundary layer next to the cylinder head is scrubbed away, causing the cylinder head to receive even more heat - which quickly leads to a runaway situation. I doubt octane has anything to do with the rate of flame propagation except that if detonation should occur, there really isn't a flame front. Pinging is different. With it there is charge ignition from non-sparkplug sources that are usually the glowing (or at least extra hot) embers inside the combustion chamber. These multiple ignition sources cause the pressures to rise more rapidly than simply the spark ignition, and things could deteriorate into detonation if it persists long enough. With pinging there is still a flame front, although it is from more sources so the pressures will rise more quickly. It has taken a long time for me to understand the difference between detonation and pinging. Detonation quickly wrecks engines and grossly feeds on itself. Pinging, which is heard only in automobiles, not aircraft engines (too noisy to hear it), is the sound of detonation. What's happening inside the combustion chamber is that once the spark plug starts the flame front, it spontaneously ignites in other areas (due to heat and pressure) and the flame fronts collide together causing turbulence which bangs off the combustion chamber walls and gives you that "pinging" sound. When the fuel/air mixture ignites as the piston is rising up, that is something wholy different and FAR more dangerous than detonation. That's called "Pre-ignition". Pre-ignition will destroy an engine in a matter of a few seconds. Detonation results in overheating (and eventual damage if not corrected) which is detectible and can be countered. Pre-ignition pulverizes pistons, turns them to pieces of their former selves. John Deakin did a series of hugely informative articles on engine mixture and what happens inside the combustion chamber on AVWeb in the columns section. The articles are all still there. Corky Scott |
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