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Some bad controllers



 
 
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  #11  
Old March 8th 04, 04:31 AM
Jeff
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it wasn't a popup, I had it on file thru FSS. ABQ before the hand off asked me
if I wanted it then or if I wanted it from phoenix, I told him I was ok at that
time and that I would get it from phoenix for my decent into williams gateway.
Boy thats a mistake I wont make again.

when I fly into phoenix VFR / flight following, ABQ has told me (and others)
that phoenix will not accept the handoff's from them and I can try calling
phoenix myself for class B transition.

I flew out of casa grande one night last summer IFR, the guy changed my
clearence 5 times in about 10 minutes, the last time he damn near wanted me to
fly to yuma before turning toawards blyth VOR. after getting handed off to
center, I asked for direct to boulder city and got it. As we were flying along
for about 45 minutes my wife saw the city lights off the right side, she goes
"is that still phoenix?"
I said yup... she then said, are they going to let us go home tonight ?

I am going to chalk this up as a learning experience and make sure it does not
happen again by getting anything I need from ABQ, but it still does not sit well
with me that the controller gave me a traffic alert in IMC.

Michael 182 wrote:

Jeff:

I fly into Phoenix all the time - I've never run into unfriendly
controllers. Busy, yes; unfriendly, no. I have been vectored all over the
place, but I assume that was for traffic or arrival/departure corridors or
some logical reason. Maybe you just ran into a bad apple. By the way, I find
it helpful to request a particular arrival when I first contact them. That
way usually either I get it, or I get something reasonably close.

Regarding getting the pop up IFR, I once had a controller in Denver refuse
me a popup. Had to contact FSS to get the clearance. Kind of a pain, but one
more item in the log book.

Michael

"Jeff" wrote in message
...
there was room, I was following the clear area between clouds and it was

taking me
away from where I wnated to go, but I expected to have my clearence any

second as
usual.

from my flights into the phoenix area, and from talking to ABQ center,

phoenix is
not very GA friendly. they tend to have a problem letting GA planes into

their
airspace. There airspace is not that busy.

Teacherjh wrote:

freezing level was 7000-8000
[...]
I start my decent, between some clouds

Between how much cloud? This could be a serious pilot error, or not a

big deal

so here I am now down from my
safe altitude above the clouds
[...]
I amnow stuck and I needed my
clearence or I would be in trouble.

... which is why I ask, above.

because he was too busy.
noone was talking except me.

On that frequency. Controllers often work many frequencies, and do

things
besides talk on the radio.

then he does not want
me to do the ILS, he tells me to
decend to 2700 ft and to be
prepared for the visual.

You can request the ILS. But if he's clearing you for a visual, then

you can
probably complete the visual. Not always though... I got a visual into

DXR
once, but was in some CB and needed a real approach. The controller

asked what
I wanted, so I took the Loc 8.

and I didnt even tell you
about the 1500 fpm downdraft
or when my engine started
losing power.

OK controllers, admit it. You have secret radio control over the

weather and
the engine. Now if you could only control the hobbs meter for me too!

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)



  #12  
Old March 8th 04, 04:39 AM
Richard Hertz
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Posts: n/a
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he may have been working multiple freqs. Sounds like you are the one with
the problem, not him. Don't blame him for anything - next time file IFR the
whole trip.


"Jeff" wrote in message
...
Just a quick note to any of you guys flying IFR into the phoenix area.
I just got back from a trip to phoenix from vegas, I had filed a
composit flgiht plan, VFR untill I was by phoenix then I would request
my IFR if it was needed since FSS reported overcast at 2700 and few at
600.

freezing level was 7000-8000, MEA was 9000 in some parts and 10,000
during other parts of route. I chose VFR the first part of the flight so
I could have the latitude to dodge clouds to prevent icing.

all went fine, I got handed off to phoenix approach, I was at 12,000 ft
on top of the layer, no way into phoenix except through that mess
either. So I asked phoenix for my IFR and he said I was cleared into
class B and to decend to 7000 and he would look for my clearence. I
start my decent, between some clouds and he comes back and says to turn
toward carefree if I want to pick up my IFR because he was to busy. no
one was talking except me.
then he told me to stay clear of class B. so here I am now down from my
safe altitude above the clouds, a nitwit controller, I zig zag between
some clouds and call him again, he says he cant see me on radar and to
turn towards carefree, so I figured I would follow the valley under some
clouds, then my wife says dont turn that way, that mountain is covered
by clouds, so I get back on the radio and tell the controller he got me
down here, I amnow stuck and I needed my clearence or I would be in
trouble. He finally said, ok, and gave it to me. man that guy ****ed me
off. there was another guy trying to do the same thing as me in a
cessna, right after I got my clearence, and the controller told him to
stay at 2500 ft and turn towards carefree because he was "saturated"
with IFR departures. Yet no one else was talking. then here I am in
these nasty clouds, outside temp about -2, he gives me to decend to
6000, then right after that screams at me traffic alert decend to 5000
...so I am in total IMC diving down to 5000 ft.. then he does not want
me to do the ILS, he tells me to decend to 2700 ft and to be prepared
for the visual. man what a crappy flight - and I didnt even tell you
about the 1500 fpm downdraft or when my engine started losing power.

that controller still has me ****ed off and its 2 days later.





  #13  
Old March 8th 04, 05:17 AM
Doug Rinks
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Jeff,

A couple things.. I think out of fairness to the controller the only
thing which you can say is that he was not busy on your freqency. It
is possible that he was busy on another freqency which you were unable
to hear, or he could have been busy coordinating your clearance, or
maybe even coordinating departures, so you would not create a problem
for them. You just never know without seeing the other side.

The thing to remember here is that you were VFR, and asked to pickup
your IFR clearance in the air. That by definition gives you less
priority in the system compared to other already IFR aircraft. Maybe
the lesson here is not to pickup your clearance in a terminal area,
but rather do it from the center prior to entering the TRACON's
airspace. I can assure you that the controller wasn't blaming the
delay on saturation for no reason.. there was obviously saturation
either in his sector, or in a sector which was ahead, and/or below
you.

Doug

Jeff wrote in message ...
Just a quick note to any of you guys flying IFR into the phoenix area.
I just got back from a trip to phoenix from vegas, I had filed a
composit flgiht plan, VFR untill I was by phoenix then I would request
my IFR if it was needed since FSS reported overcast at 2700 and few at
600.

freezing level was 7000-8000, MEA was 9000 in some parts and 10,000
during other parts of route. I chose VFR the first part of the flight so
I could have the latitude to dodge clouds to prevent icing.

all went fine, I got handed off to phoenix approach, I was at 12,000 ft
on top of the layer, no way into phoenix except through that mess
either. So I asked phoenix for my IFR and he said I was cleared into
class B and to decend to 7000 and he would look for my clearence. I
start my decent, between some clouds and he comes back and says to turn
toward carefree if I want to pick up my IFR because he was to busy. no
one was talking except me.
then he told me to stay clear of class B. so here I am now down from my
safe altitude above the clouds, a nitwit controller, I zig zag between
some clouds and call him again, he says he cant see me on radar and to
turn towards carefree, so I figured I would follow the valley under some
clouds, then my wife says dont turn that way, that mountain is covered
by clouds, so I get back on the radio and tell the controller he got me
down here, I amnow stuck and I needed my clearence or I would be in
trouble. He finally said, ok, and gave it to me. man that guy ****ed me
off. there was another guy trying to do the same thing as me in a
cessna, right after I got my clearence, and the controller told him to
stay at 2500 ft and turn towards carefree because he was "saturated"
with IFR departures. Yet no one else was talking. then here I am in
these nasty clouds, outside temp about -2, he gives me to decend to
6000, then right after that screams at me traffic alert decend to 5000
...so I am in total IMC diving down to 5000 ft.. then he does not want
me to do the ILS, he tells me to decend to 2700 ft and to be prepared
for the visual. man what a crappy flight - and I didnt even tell you
about the 1500 fpm downdraft or when my engine started losing power.

that controller still has me ****ed off and its 2 days later.

  #14  
Old March 8th 04, 05:37 AM
Mike Rapoport
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

If you are not prepared to fly in "nasty clouds" then you have no business
filing, requesting or flying IFR.

Mike
MU-2


"Jeff" wrote in message
...
Just a quick note to any of you guys flying IFR into the phoenix area.
I just got back from a trip to phoenix from vegas, I had filed a
composit flgiht plan, VFR untill I was by phoenix then I would request
my IFR if it was needed since FSS reported overcast at 2700 and few at
600.

freezing level was 7000-8000, MEA was 9000 in some parts and 10,000
during other parts of route. I chose VFR the first part of the flight so
I could have the latitude to dodge clouds to prevent icing.

all went fine, I got handed off to phoenix approach, I was at 12,000 ft
on top of the layer, no way into phoenix except through that mess
either. So I asked phoenix for my IFR and he said I was cleared into
class B and to decend to 7000 and he would look for my clearence. I
start my decent, between some clouds and he comes back and says to turn
toward carefree if I want to pick up my IFR because he was to busy. no
one was talking except me.
then he told me to stay clear of class B. so here I am now down from my
safe altitude above the clouds, a nitwit controller, I zig zag between
some clouds and call him again, he says he cant see me on radar and to
turn towards carefree, so I figured I would follow the valley under some
clouds, then my wife says dont turn that way, that mountain is covered
by clouds, so I get back on the radio and tell the controller he got me
down here, I amnow stuck and I needed my clearence or I would be in
trouble. He finally said, ok, and gave it to me. man that guy ****ed me
off. there was another guy trying to do the same thing as me in a
cessna, right after I got my clearence, and the controller told him to
stay at 2500 ft and turn towards carefree because he was "saturated"
with IFR departures. Yet no one else was talking. then here I am in
these nasty clouds, outside temp about -2, he gives me to decend to
6000, then right after that screams at me traffic alert decend to 5000
...so I am in total IMC diving down to 5000 ft.. then he does not want
me to do the ILS, he tells me to decend to 2700 ft and to be prepared
for the visual. man what a crappy flight - and I didnt even tell you
about the 1500 fpm downdraft or when my engine started losing power.

that controller still has me ****ed off and its 2 days later.





  #15  
Old March 8th 04, 06:20 AM
Mike Adams
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Jeff wrote:

no matter how you dice it, that should not have happened. Phoenix does
not get much IMC, its sunny about 350 days a year there.


This is the key to the whole situation. PHX weather is so good, the Tracon
folks just don't have to deal with it very often. Jeff's experience is
fairly common around this area. Any clouds in the sky and they freak out
and can't handle anybody. We often talk about how they ought to rotate
people through Socal to learn how to really accommodate IFR GA operations.
The flexible, impromptu clearances and tower enroute operations over there
are totally unheard of in PHX.

Mike
  #16  
Old March 8th 04, 07:38 AM
Jeff
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

those people out at SoCal are very good in my opinion.
I always pick up my clearance when going into the LA basin at the HEC VOR
since that's where the ziggy3 arrival begins.

Mike Adams wrote:

Jeff wrote:

no matter how you dice it, that should not have happened. Phoenix does
not get much IMC, its sunny about 350 days a year there.


This is the key to the whole situation. PHX weather is so good, the Tracon
folks just don't have to deal with it very often. Jeff's experience is
fairly common around this area. Any clouds in the sky and they freak out
and can't handle anybody. We often talk about how they ought to rotate
people through Socal to learn how to really accommodate IFR GA operations.
The flexible, impromptu clearances and tower enroute operations over there
are totally unheard of in PHX.

Mike


  #17  
Old March 8th 04, 07:39 AM
Jeff
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

dont blame him for anything?
who was controlling that other plane?
I sure was not.

there is no reason to have to file IFR the entire trip.

Richard Hertz wrote:

he may have been working multiple freqs. Sounds like you are the one with
the problem, not him. Don't blame him for anything - next time file IFR the
whole trip.

"Jeff" wrote in message
...
Just a quick note to any of you guys flying IFR into the phoenix area.
I just got back from a trip to phoenix from vegas, I had filed a
composit flgiht plan, VFR untill I was by phoenix then I would request
my IFR if it was needed since FSS reported overcast at 2700 and few at
600.

freezing level was 7000-8000, MEA was 9000 in some parts and 10,000
during other parts of route. I chose VFR the first part of the flight so
I could have the latitude to dodge clouds to prevent icing.

all went fine, I got handed off to phoenix approach, I was at 12,000 ft
on top of the layer, no way into phoenix except through that mess
either. So I asked phoenix for my IFR and he said I was cleared into
class B and to decend to 7000 and he would look for my clearence. I
start my decent, between some clouds and he comes back and says to turn
toward carefree if I want to pick up my IFR because he was to busy. no
one was talking except me.
then he told me to stay clear of class B. so here I am now down from my
safe altitude above the clouds, a nitwit controller, I zig zag between
some clouds and call him again, he says he cant see me on radar and to
turn towards carefree, so I figured I would follow the valley under some
clouds, then my wife says dont turn that way, that mountain is covered
by clouds, so I get back on the radio and tell the controller he got me
down here, I amnow stuck and I needed my clearence or I would be in
trouble. He finally said, ok, and gave it to me. man that guy ****ed me
off. there was another guy trying to do the same thing as me in a
cessna, right after I got my clearence, and the controller told him to
stay at 2500 ft and turn towards carefree because he was "saturated"
with IFR departures. Yet no one else was talking. then here I am in
these nasty clouds, outside temp about -2, he gives me to decend to
6000, then right after that screams at me traffic alert decend to 5000
...so I am in total IMC diving down to 5000 ft.. then he does not want
me to do the ILS, he tells me to decend to 2700 ft and to be prepared
for the visual. man what a crappy flight - and I didnt even tell you
about the 1500 fpm downdraft or when my engine started losing power.

that controller still has me ****ed off and its 2 days later.




  #18  
Old March 8th 04, 07:41 AM
Jeff
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

ya your right, thats why I received the traffic alert, the air was so saturated with traffic
that I was just in the way of that other plane.

Doug Rinks wrote:

Jeff,

I can assure you that the controller wasn't blaming the
delay on saturation for no reason.. there was obviously saturation
either in his sector, or in a sector which was ahead, and/or below
you.

Doug

Jeff wrote in message ...
Just a quick note to any of you guys flying IFR into the phoenix area.
I just got back from a trip to phoenix from vegas, I had filed a
composit flgiht plan, VFR untill I was by phoenix then I would request
my IFR if it was needed since FSS reported overcast at 2700 and few at
600.

freezing level was 7000-8000, MEA was 9000 in some parts and 10,000
during other parts of route. I chose VFR the first part of the flight so
I could have the latitude to dodge clouds to prevent icing.

all went fine, I got handed off to phoenix approach, I was at 12,000 ft
on top of the layer, no way into phoenix except through that mess
either. So I asked phoenix for my IFR and he said I was cleared into
class B and to decend to 7000 and he would look for my clearence. I
start my decent, between some clouds and he comes back and says to turn
toward carefree if I want to pick up my IFR because he was to busy. no
one was talking except me.
then he told me to stay clear of class B. so here I am now down from my
safe altitude above the clouds, a nitwit controller, I zig zag between
some clouds and call him again, he says he cant see me on radar and to
turn towards carefree, so I figured I would follow the valley under some
clouds, then my wife says dont turn that way, that mountain is covered
by clouds, so I get back on the radio and tell the controller he got me
down here, I amnow stuck and I needed my clearence or I would be in
trouble. He finally said, ok, and gave it to me. man that guy ****ed me
off. there was another guy trying to do the same thing as me in a
cessna, right after I got my clearence, and the controller told him to
stay at 2500 ft and turn towards carefree because he was "saturated"
with IFR departures. Yet no one else was talking. then here I am in
these nasty clouds, outside temp about -2, he gives me to decend to
6000, then right after that screams at me traffic alert decend to 5000
...so I am in total IMC diving down to 5000 ft.. then he does not want
me to do the ILS, he tells me to decend to 2700 ft and to be prepared
for the visual. man what a crappy flight - and I didnt even tell you
about the 1500 fpm downdraft or when my engine started losing power.

that controller still has me ****ed off and its 2 days later.


  #19  
Old March 8th 04, 07:42 AM
Jeff
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

and how was I not prepared ?


Mike Rapoport wrote:

If you are not prepared to fly in "nasty clouds" then you have no business
filing, requesting or flying IFR.

Mike
MU-2

"Jeff" wrote in message
...
Just a quick note to any of you guys flying IFR into the phoenix area.
I just got back from a trip to phoenix from vegas, I had filed a
composit flgiht plan, VFR untill I was by phoenix then I would request
my IFR if it was needed since FSS reported overcast at 2700 and few at
600.

freezing level was 7000-8000, MEA was 9000 in some parts and 10,000
during other parts of route. I chose VFR the first part of the flight so
I could have the latitude to dodge clouds to prevent icing.

all went fine, I got handed off to phoenix approach, I was at 12,000 ft
on top of the layer, no way into phoenix except through that mess
either. So I asked phoenix for my IFR and he said I was cleared into
class B and to decend to 7000 and he would look for my clearence. I
start my decent, between some clouds and he comes back and says to turn
toward carefree if I want to pick up my IFR because he was to busy. no
one was talking except me.
then he told me to stay clear of class B. so here I am now down from my
safe altitude above the clouds, a nitwit controller, I zig zag between
some clouds and call him again, he says he cant see me on radar and to
turn towards carefree, so I figured I would follow the valley under some
clouds, then my wife says dont turn that way, that mountain is covered
by clouds, so I get back on the radio and tell the controller he got me
down here, I amnow stuck and I needed my clearence or I would be in
trouble. He finally said, ok, and gave it to me. man that guy ****ed me
off. there was another guy trying to do the same thing as me in a
cessna, right after I got my clearence, and the controller told him to
stay at 2500 ft and turn towards carefree because he was "saturated"
with IFR departures. Yet no one else was talking. then here I am in
these nasty clouds, outside temp about -2, he gives me to decend to
6000, then right after that screams at me traffic alert decend to 5000
...so I am in total IMC diving down to 5000 ft.. then he does not want
me to do the ILS, he tells me to decend to 2700 ft and to be prepared
for the visual. man what a crappy flight - and I didnt even tell you
about the 1500 fpm downdraft or when my engine started losing power.

that controller still has me ****ed off and its 2 days later.




  #20  
Old March 8th 04, 12:58 PM
Matthew S. Whiting
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Jeff wrote:
ya he was so busy he almost let someone fly into me.

no matter how you dice it, that should not have happened. Phoenix does not get much IMC, its
sunny about 350 days a year there.


That is likely part of the problem. A controller who only handles IFR
traffic in IMC 5 days a year will be about as proficient as a pilot who
only encounters IMC 5 days a year in his IFR flying.


Matt

 




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