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Practice IMC in real IMC



 
 
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  #1  
Old March 23rd 06, 03:38 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
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Default Practice IMC in real IMC

Hello,

I want to practice maneuvers, descending turns and basic manual
maneuvering in IMC conditions. Is it possible to get ATC to assign you
a 'practice area' in real IMC environment? Say a block of airspace
like they do for aerobatics? Of course I would first do this with a
CFII.
Previous all my maneuvering in the clouds has been during real
approaches close to the ground. All of my IFR flying is single pilot.
I have had a few cases when alone I have had to make the procedure turn
reversal and descend at the same time and I was definitely
uncomfortable with the smoothness of the descending turn. I would
focus on bank angle and descent rate and I would pass through the
bearing, or I would allow the bank rate to go beyond standard rate.
Nothing significant, 10 degrees on bearing and maybe 10 deg on bank
angle, no loss of control or serious deviations. Everything would work
out OK, but I was not comfortable and it was not acceptable performance
for me. I have since limited maneuvers in IMC to either turning, or
descending, but not both. This works well, but I know that sometime I
will get to do both again. Most of my approaches are either VOR or
NDB. ILS approaches are a piece of cake.
I can do it perfectly (well, acceptable and without error) under the
hood. I just finished a 3 hour run with a CFII under the hood and
everything was perfect. There is something different about maneuvering
in the clouds.
I know I could get a CFII in actual conditions with close to min
ceilings, and practice maneuvers during the approach, but that doesn't
sound smart to me. I don't care how good the CFII is, loss of control
in IMC at 800 feet above the ground is going to be ugly. I want to
practice with a bunch of air below me.
Of course I fly perfectly with the AP enabled

Thanks,
Greg

  #2  
Old March 23rd 06, 03:54 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
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Default Practice IMC in real IMC


"gregscheetah" wrote in message
oups.com...

I want to practice maneuvers, descending turns and basic manual
maneuvering in IMC conditions. Is it possible to get ATC to assign you
a 'practice area' in real IMC environment? Say a block of airspace
like they do for aerobatics? Of course I would first do this with a
CFII.


Sure. You'll get a chunk of airspace defined by a block altitude and
maximum distance from some fix or VOR radials. Your CFII may have already
done this.


  #3  
Old March 23rd 06, 03:58 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
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Default Practice IMC in real IMC

You might be able to get a block altitude assigned for use like that but
I'd get the number of the TRACON you'd be using and call someone up
there and ask how best to proceed before filing and getting in the soup.

Cloud flying is different, a peek is work a thousand crosschecks, you
are forced to be honest when you're in the soup, even your peripheral
cues disappear.

gregscheetah wrote:
Hello,

I want to practice maneuvers, descending turns and basic manual
maneuvering in IMC conditions. Is it possible to get ATC to assign you
a 'practice area' in real IMC environment? Say a block of airspace
like they do for aerobatics? Of course I would first do this with a
CFII.
Previous all my maneuvering in the clouds has been during real
approaches close to the ground. All of my IFR flying is single pilot.
I have had a few cases when alone I have had to make the procedure turn
reversal and descend at the same time and I was definitely
uncomfortable with the smoothness of the descending turn. I would
focus on bank angle and descent rate and I would pass through the
bearing, or I would allow the bank rate to go beyond standard rate.
Nothing significant, 10 degrees on bearing and maybe 10 deg on bank
angle, no loss of control or serious deviations. Everything would work
out OK, but I was not comfortable and it was not acceptable performance
for me. I have since limited maneuvers in IMC to either turning, or
descending, but not both. This works well, but I know that sometime I
will get to do both again. Most of my approaches are either VOR or
NDB. ILS approaches are a piece of cake.
I can do it perfectly (well, acceptable and without error) under the
hood. I just finished a 3 hour run with a CFII under the hood and
everything was perfect. There is something different about maneuvering
in the clouds.
I know I could get a CFII in actual conditions with close to min
ceilings, and practice maneuvers during the approach, but that doesn't
sound smart to me. I don't care how good the CFII is, loss of control
in IMC at 800 feet above the ground is going to be ugly. I want to
practice with a bunch of air below me.
Of course I fly perfectly with the AP enabled

Thanks,
Greg

  #4  
Old March 23rd 06, 04:06 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
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Posts: n/a
Default Practice IMC in real IMC

Robert Chambers wrote:
Cloud flying is different, a peek is work a thousand crosschecks, you
are forced to be honest when you're in the soup, even your peripheral
cues disappear.



Pretty much everyone will tell you it's actually easier to fly in clouds than
under the hood. I assume it's because you have the normal scope of vision
within the cockpit compared to the very limited view under the hood. So, while
you still can't see the horizon, you can see the radios, compass, instruments,
etc in the same view.

Then of course there's the added motivation. This is one video game you can't
afford to lose.




--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

VE





  #5  
Old March 23rd 06, 04:35 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
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Posts: n/a
Default Practice IMC in real IMC

In a previous article, "gregscheetah" said:
I want to practice maneuvers, descending turns and basic manual
maneuvering in IMC conditions. Is it possible to get ATC to assign you
a 'practice area' in real IMC environment? Say a block of airspace
like they do for aerobatics? Of course I would first do this with a
CFII.


My CFII would request a hold at the local holding fix, and then request a
block altitude. As long as you stayed on the correct side of the hold,
ATC are remarkably tolerant of what you do - stalls, unusual attitude
recovery, climbs and descents at a given speed, climbs and descents at a
given rate, etc. You're already doing constant rate turns in the hold, so
do them partial panel and time them.


--
Paul Tomblin http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
I'm a Darwinian carnivore. I only eat things that weren't fit enough
to prevent their being killed.
-- Mike Sphar
  #6  
Old March 23rd 06, 05:15 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
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Default Practice IMC in real IMC

Unusual attitude recovery and stalls are probably things I would not do
in IMC.

-Robert, CFI

  #7  
Old March 23rd 06, 05:58 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
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Default Practice IMC in real IMC

I would find out what areas are used by Center for such
purposes and ask for a "block altitude for maneuvers" but
I'd be sure you have a high ceiling so you can recover if a
real problem happens. The military has ejection seats and
they use them on occasion.

I've done this on several occasions. Center will often a
lot you a big block, if you're planning on doing unusual
attitudes, better have as block from the MEA up to your
starting altitude, Center expects you will stay above lower
traffic.

--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.


"Dane Spearing" wrote in message
...
| In article ,
| Mortimer Schnerd, RN
wrote:
| Then of course there's the added motivation. This is one
video game
| you can't afford to lose.
|
| Heh. It's nice to know I'm not the only one who considers
flying in IMC
| to be a form of "extreme videogaming". It's a hella
lotta fun, but
| you only get one guy, and you can't put another quarter in
the machine
| and get a replay if you screw up.
|
| -- Dane


  #8  
Old March 23rd 06, 06:16 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
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Posts: n/a
Default Practice IMC in real IMC

gregscheetah wrote:
Hello,

I want to practice maneuvers, descending turns and basic manual
maneuvering in IMC conditions. Is it possible to get ATC to assign you
a 'practice area' in real IMC environment?


Absolutely. Ask for something like, "Request permission to maneuver
within 5 miles of XXX, between 3000 and 4000".

Whether you get it or not depends on how much traffic there is. As
long as there's no conflicting traffic, ATC should be able to approve
a block. The controller will want to know for how long you'll need
the block.

Make sure you ask for something you can comply with, i.e. a DME radius
around a VOR/DME, or a radius around any en-route fix if you've got
DME. And keep in mind that an IFR clearance is a serious thing; if
you're cleared to maneuver within 5 miles of XXX, you damn well better
make sure you stay within that circle.
  #9  
Old March 23rd 06, 06:34 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
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Default Practice IMC in real IMC

"Robert M. Gary" wrote:

Unusual attitude recovery and stalls are probably things I would not do
in IMC.


One one instrument proficiency check a few years ago, I had a CFII not only
ask me to perform stalls, but also to make two steep turns, all while
flying on an IFR flight plan in IMC.

--
Peter
  #10  
Old March 23rd 06, 06:44 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
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Default Practice IMC in real IMC


"Michael" wrote in message
ups.com...

That is theoretically possible, but not common in airspace that is at
all busy.


Of course not.



I do most of my instruction in Houston Approach airspace,
and find that the practical way to accomplish this is to request a hold
at an intersection or VOR and a block altitude for the hold. Usually
that request can be accomodated as long as the intersection or VOR
isn't a fix on the active DP or STAR, and once there nobody really
cares what maneuvers you perform within the protected holding airspace.


Same thing.


 




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