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#1
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No spin training in the US?
What's eveyrones opinion regarding the lack of spin traning for
students in the US? I see that there was a thread about this from an instructor viewpoint a while back, but not necessarilly from the student viewpoint. Personally, there was only two lessons that I didn't look forward to - Spin training, and spiral dives. Spiral dives turned out to be nothing at all.. 15 minutes, 4 or 5 spirals, quick and safe recoveries, and that was over. Nothing to it, I was worried about something which amounted to easy training. Spins however, as comfortable of a student as I am, got me a little excited. However, we went out, did them, and that was it. Looking back on things, I'm *very* glad that they are still part of the curiculum here in Canada. It's easy to "read" about something in the POH and try to cram all that into your cranium should the situation ever occur, but... Can anyone here honestly say that everything they've ever read, versus practiced in the air, equals the same training-wise? For example, if you never had spin training, and suddenly found yourself in a spin, would you be confident that everything you "read" about them will get you out of it? Yes, you can read what's necessary, but can you automatically recall all of that in the air, when your first inintentional "lesson" on spins could possibly be at 1000AGL in the circuilt? I've consistently found that lessons practiced quickly become second nature, whereas things I've read take much more time to fully grasp untill it comes into real-life practice...and there is no substitution for the real thing - anyone who has spent time flying MS Flight Simulator before flying the real thing can certainly attest to this. Yes, the spins were not fun.. I wasn't one of the students who were so paranoid of them that I was cancelling flights to avoid the inevitable, and then ended up in the fetal position on the floor of the plane during them - I just wasn't "excited" about them like everything else. grin Yep, there was a whole lot more "Ground" in the windscreen all of a sudden then I ever want to see again. But I'm glad I did it. During the actual training, my proficiency with initiating, and (more importantly) recovering from the spins gained rapidly. By the 4th or 5th spin, I was able to recover consistently and quickly, without much "thinking" about what to do, and more "automatically" just doing it. More importantly, I was in the 100's of feel of alt lost, instead of the 1000's in the first spins. If an unintentional spin ever happened in the circuit, I'm much more likely to be able to recover before hitting terra-firma now, then I would have been initially. I can't honestly say that if spin training was not part of the curriculum here still, that I wouldn't ask for it regardless..fun or otherwise.. But reading here in the newsgroups, it seems as if most schools in the US no longer train them, even if they are still technically allowed, but not required? Opinions? Mark Morissette Courtice, Ontario, Canada (Flying out of CYOO) http://oshawapilot.blogspot.com |
#2
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I have been told that there was a high fatility rate during spin training
when it was being universally taught by people who did not specialize in spin training. Now it is being taught by specialists. I did it 30+ years ago when I got my private and thought it was fun. As you know since you can't spin without stalling the lack of actual spins is probably not a safety matter. Current training on weight and balance emphasizes the importance of cg as a factor in inadvertent spins which further alleviates the problem. "Mark Morissette" wrote in message ... What's eveyrones opinion regarding the lack of spin traning for students in the US? I see that there was a thread about this from an instructor viewpoint a while back, but not necessarilly from the student viewpoint. Personally, there was only two lessons that I didn't look forward to - Spin training, and spiral dives. Spiral dives turned out to be nothing at all.. 15 minutes, 4 or 5 spirals, quick and safe recoveries, and that was over. Nothing to it, I was worried about something which amounted to easy training. Spins however, as comfortable of a student as I am, got me a little excited. However, we went out, did them, and that was it. Looking back on things, I'm *very* glad that they are still part of the curiculum here in Canada. It's easy to "read" about something in the POH and try to cram all that into your cranium should the situation ever occur, but... Can anyone here honestly say that everything they've ever read, versus practiced in the air, equals the same training-wise? For example, if you never had spin training, and suddenly found yourself in a spin, would you be confident that everything you "read" about them will get you out of it? Yes, you can read what's necessary, but can you automatically recall all of that in the air, when your first inintentional "lesson" on spins could possibly be at 1000AGL in the circuilt? I've consistently found that lessons practiced quickly become second nature, whereas things I've read take much more time to fully grasp untill it comes into real-life practice...and there is no substitution for the real thing - anyone who has spent time flying MS Flight Simulator before flying the real thing can certainly attest to this. Yes, the spins were not fun.. I wasn't one of the students who were so paranoid of them that I was cancelling flights to avoid the inevitable, and then ended up in the fetal position on the floor of the plane during them - I just wasn't "excited" about them like everything else. grin Yep, there was a whole lot more "Ground" in the windscreen all of a sudden then I ever want to see again. But I'm glad I did it. During the actual training, my proficiency with initiating, and (more importantly) recovering from the spins gained rapidly. By the 4th or 5th spin, I was able to recover consistently and quickly, without much "thinking" about what to do, and more "automatically" just doing it. More importantly, I was in the 100's of feel of alt lost, instead of the 1000's in the first spins. If an unintentional spin ever happened in the circuit, I'm much more likely to be able to recover before hitting terra-firma now, then I would have been initially. I can't honestly say that if spin training was not part of the curriculum here still, that I wouldn't ask for it regardless..fun or otherwise.. But reading here in the newsgroups, it seems as if most schools in the US no longer train them, even if they are still technically allowed, but not required? Opinions? Mark Morissette Courtice, Ontario, Canada (Flying out of CYOO) http://oshawapilot.blogspot.com |
#3
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I enjoyed spins. I think they made me a safer pilot.
AAR they were stopped because there were too many accidents during the training itself, and it was (overall) "safer" to just let pilots take their chances - sort of like training for an engine-out by actually killing the engine. Jose (r.a.s retained, though I don't follow that group) -- Get high on gasoline: fly an airplane. for Email, make the obvious change in the address. |
#4
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Of course teaching spins is still alllowed. I received spin training
during my private (3 spins). Spin training is required for CFI rating (which I also have). I think another consideration is that a lot of training aircraft are not certified for spins. But the bottom line was, after they discontinued the spin training, fatalities from spin training went down. You've had some fatalities from spin training up there in Canada. At any rate, we now have two programs, otherwise fairly similar, one with spin training, one without. Should be able to obtain fairly accurate information on which program is producing fewer accidents. |
#5
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Spin training was not part of my PPl curriculum, so I simply went to a Navy
pilot buddy who was also a CFI and asked him to train me, which he did. Very glad I did it. There are arguments pro and con on PPL spin training but in this instance I made my own decision and got my own training. Gregg Mark Morissette wrote: What's eveyrones opinion regarding the lack of spin traning for students in the US? I see that there was a thread about this from an instructor viewpoint a while back, but not necessarilly from the student viewpoint. Personally, there was only two lessons that I didn't look forward to - Spin training, and spiral dives. Spiral dives turned out to be nothing at all.. 15 minutes, 4 or 5 spirals, quick and safe recoveries, and that was over. Nothing to it, I was worried about something which amounted to easy training. Spins however, as comfortable of a student as I am, got me a little excited. However, we went out, did them, and that was it. Looking back on things, I'm *very* glad that they are still part of the curiculum here in Canada. It's easy to "read" about something in the POH and try to cram all that into your cranium should the situation ever occur, but... Can anyone here honestly say that everything they've ever read, versus practiced in the air, equals the same training-wise? For example, if you never had spin training, and suddenly found yourself in a spin, would you be confident that everything you "read" about them will get you out of it? Yes, you can read what's necessary, but can you automatically recall all of that in the air, when your first inintentional "lesson" on spins could possibly be at 1000AGL in the circuilt? I've consistently found that lessons practiced quickly become second nature, whereas things I've read take much more time to fully grasp untill it comes into real-life practice...and there is no substitution for the real thing - anyone who has spent time flying MS Flight Simulator before flying the real thing can certainly attest to this. Yes, the spins were not fun.. I wasn't one of the students who were so paranoid of them that I was cancelling flights to avoid the inevitable, and then ended up in the fetal position on the floor of the plane during them - I just wasn't "excited" about them like everything else. grin Yep, there was a whole lot more "Ground" in the windscreen all of a sudden then I ever want to see again. But I'm glad I did it. During the actual training, my proficiency with initiating, and (more importantly) recovering from the spins gained rapidly. By the 4th or 5th spin, I was able to recover consistently and quickly, without much "thinking" about what to do, and more "automatically" just doing it. More importantly, I was in the 100's of feel of alt lost, instead of the 1000's in the first spins. If an unintentional spin ever happened in the circuit, I'm much more likely to be able to recover before hitting terra-firma now, then I would have been initially. I can't honestly say that if spin training was not part of the curriculum here still, that I wouldn't ask for it regardless..fun or otherwise.. But reading here in the newsgroups, it seems as if most schools in the US no longer train them, even if they are still technically allowed, but not required? Opinions? Mark Morissette Courtice, Ontario, Canada (Flying out of CYOO) http://oshawapilot.blogspot.com -- Saville Replicas of 15th-19th century nautical navigational instruments: http://home.comcast.net/~saville/backstaffhome.html Restoration of my 82 year old Herreshoff S-Boat sailboat: http://home.comcast.net/~saville/SBOATrestore.htm Steambending FAQ with photos: http://home.comcast.net/~saville/Steambend.htm |
#6
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As an American CFI specializing in both primary flight instruction and at
the other end of the spectrum; advanced aerobatic instruction all through my career in aviation, naturally this issue is well known to me. I've dealt with it with pilots, instructor seminars, with American aviation manufacturers and with the FAA here in the states. After doing all this, my opinion is simply one of many diversified opinions on this subject. The short answer is the most popular. As stated, it simply assumes that if you can avoid the stall; and/or recover from the stall, you can avoid the spin. Carried a step further, it assumes also that if you possess knowledge of spins coupled with training in spin awareness, you are safe in the air environment. On the other side of this coin, you have a bad incident and accident record in the United States when dealing with the instructor/student/spin scenario. These factors couple to produce what we have now for dealing with the stall/spin accident scenario. The problem with all this is that it attempts to handle the problem, but in reality is nothing more than a compromise in training that addresses specific concerns; 1. It attempts to satisfy the training need while avoiding the area of highest danger in the training environment; the instructor/student/spin scenario. 2. It just happens to be extremely appealing to the aircraft manufacturers lobby in the United States, who have a vested sales interest in projecting pilot training in a comfortable and favorable condition. In my opinion, based on my exposure to this environment at all levels, I believe the present condition concerning spin training in the United States falls short of what it could have been. In other words, there can be no doubt considering the accident stats, that accidents have been avoided by not requiring spin training for certification as a pilot, but in my opinion, the average proficiency level and overall confidence level in the pilot community would be higher if spin training was a requirement. It's that omnipresent tradeoff that always seems to rear it's ugly head when safety and training comfort levels conflict. Combine this with some accident data resulting from the instructor/student/spin equation, and add to that a strong manufacturing lobby seeking comfort levels for pilot training to make the training as attractive as possible to a prospective sales marketing base, and you have what we have now in the United States concerning spin training. As an aside; I recommend highly that EVERY student pilot engaged in flight training in the United States, take it on themselves personally, to seek out a competent instructor and a suitable aircraft and take some active spin training. Not only will this training make you a better all around pilot, but it will as well fill what I consider the most important gap left out of the United States attitude on spin training; that being a FAMILIARITY through actual experience with the spin environment. Taking the surprise and potential panic out of the unusual attitude equation and replacing that with a familiarity gained through actual hands on experience in the unusual attitude environment greatly increases the odds of survival for a pilot suddenly injected into that environment. It shortens the reaction time and tends to rote the reaction in the correct direction. Summation on this issue in my opinion is that there is no substitute for hands on experience in the unusual attitude environment and I can truthfully say that in my over 50 years of dealing with these issues I have never met a single pilot.....not ONE single pilot, who wasn't a better BASIC pilot after having taken unusual attitude and spin training. This to me says it all. You can be safe............or you can be safer!!! Think about it!! Dudley Henriques International Fighter Pilots Fellowship Commercial Pilot; CFI; Retired dhenriquestrashatearthlinktrashdotnet (take out the trash :-) "Mark Morissette" wrote in message ... What's eveyrones opinion regarding the lack of spin traning for students in the US? I see that there was a thread about this from an instructor viewpoint a while back, but not necessarilly from the student viewpoint. Personally, there was only two lessons that I didn't look forward to - Spin training, and spiral dives. Spiral dives turned out to be nothing at all.. 15 minutes, 4 or 5 spirals, quick and safe recoveries, and that was over. Nothing to it, I was worried about something which amounted to easy training. Spins however, as comfortable of a student as I am, got me a little excited. However, we went out, did them, and that was it. Looking back on things, I'm *very* glad that they are still part of the curiculum here in Canada. It's easy to "read" about something in the POH and try to cram all that into your cranium should the situation ever occur, but... Can anyone here honestly say that everything they've ever read, versus practiced in the air, equals the same training-wise? For example, if you never had spin training, and suddenly found yourself in a spin, would you be confident that everything you "read" about them will get you out of it? Yes, you can read what's necessary, but can you automatically recall all of that in the air, when your first inintentional "lesson" on spins could possibly be at 1000AGL in the circuilt? I've consistently found that lessons practiced quickly become second nature, whereas things I've read take much more time to fully grasp untill it comes into real-life practice...and there is no substitution for the real thing - anyone who has spent time flying MS Flight Simulator before flying the real thing can certainly attest to this. Yes, the spins were not fun.. I wasn't one of the students who were so paranoid of them that I was cancelling flights to avoid the inevitable, and then ended up in the fetal position on the floor of the plane during them - I just wasn't "excited" about them like everything else. grin Yep, there was a whole lot more "Ground" in the windscreen all of a sudden then I ever want to see again. But I'm glad I did it. During the actual training, my proficiency with initiating, and (more importantly) recovering from the spins gained rapidly. By the 4th or 5th spin, I was able to recover consistently and quickly, without much "thinking" about what to do, and more "automatically" just doing it. More importantly, I was in the 100's of feel of alt lost, instead of the 1000's in the first spins. If an unintentional spin ever happened in the circuit, I'm much more likely to be able to recover before hitting terra-firma now, then I would have been initially. I can't honestly say that if spin training was not part of the curriculum here still, that I wouldn't ask for it regardless..fun or otherwise.. But reading here in the newsgroups, it seems as if most schools in the US no longer train them, even if they are still technically allowed, but not required? Opinions? Mark Morissette Courtice, Ontario, Canada (Flying out of CYOO) http://oshawapilot.blogspot.com |
#7
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Dudley Henriques wrote:
As an American CFI specializing in both primary flight instruction and at the other end of the spectrum; advanced aerobatic instruction all through my career in aviation, naturally this issue is well known to me. I've dealt with it with pilots, instructor seminars, with American aviation manufacturers and with the FAA here in the states. {snip} Summation on this issue in my opinion is that there is no substitute for hands on experience in the unusual attitude environment and I can truthfully say that in my over 50 years of dealing with these issues I have never met a single pilot.....not ONE single pilot, who wasn't a better BASIC pilot after having taken unusual attitude and spin training. This to me says it all. You can be safe............or you can be safer!!! Think about it!! Dudley Henriques International Fighter Pilots Fellowship Commercial Pilot; CFI; Retired Yes, typical government approach of throwing the baby out with the bath water. The problem wasn't spin training per se, it was instructors not proficient in how to conduct spin training. So, rather than address that root problem, the Feds simply removed the requirement and discouraged the practice entirely. I certainly agree that learning to avoid stalls is essential training, but the reality is that inadvertant stalls still happen and pilots aren't properly training to handle them. I'd have much rather seen the FAA focus on developing proper spin training procedures and instructor training. Matt |
#8
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Mark Morissette wrote:
What's eveyrones opinion regarding the lack of spin traning for students in the US? I see that there was a thread about this from an instructor viewpoint a while back, but not necessarilly from the student viewpoint. Personally, there was only two lessons that I didn't look forward to - Spin training, and spiral dives. Spiral dives turned out to be nothing at all.. 15 minutes, 4 or 5 spirals, quick and safe recoveries, and that was over. Nothing to it, I was worried about something which amounted to easy training. Spins however, as comfortable of a student as I am, got me a little excited. However, we went out, did them, and that was it. Looking back on things, I'm *very* glad that they are still part of the curiculum here in Canada. It's easy to "read" about something in the POH and try to cram all that into your cranium should the situation ever occur, but... Can anyone here honestly say that everything they've ever read, versus practiced in the air, equals the same training-wise? For example, if you never had spin training, and suddenly found yourself in a spin, would you be confident that everything you "read" about them will get you out of it? Yes, you can read what's necessary, but can you automatically recall all of that in the air, when your first inintentional "lesson" on spins could possibly be at 1000AGL in the circuilt? I've consistently found that lessons practiced quickly become second nature, whereas things I've read take much more time to fully grasp untill it comes into real-life practice...and there is no substitution for the real thing - anyone who has spent time flying MS Flight Simulator before flying the real thing can certainly attest to this. Yes, the spins were not fun.. I wasn't one of the students who were so paranoid of them that I was cancelling flights to avoid the inevitable, and then ended up in the fetal position on the floor of the plane during them - I just wasn't "excited" about them like everything else. grin Yep, there was a whole lot more "Ground" in the windscreen all of a sudden then I ever want to see again. But I'm glad I did it. During the actual training, my proficiency with initiating, and (more importantly) recovering from the spins gained rapidly. By the 4th or 5th spin, I was able to recover consistently and quickly, without much "thinking" about what to do, and more "automatically" just doing it. More importantly, I was in the 100's of feel of alt lost, instead of the 1000's in the first spins. If an unintentional spin ever happened in the circuit, I'm much more likely to be able to recover before hitting terra-firma now, then I would have been initially. I can't honestly say that if spin training was not part of the curriculum here still, that I wouldn't ask for it regardless..fun or otherwise.. But reading here in the newsgroups, it seems as if most schools in the US no longer train them, even if they are still technically allowed, but not required? Opinions? Mark Morissette Courtice, Ontario, Canada (Flying out of CYOO) http://oshawapilot.blogspot.com You can take an aerobatic course or maybe just a few lessons. Or, get a glider certificate where incipient spins are taught. |
#9
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I'm actually looking forward to experiencing them for my CFI training.
Having said that I will say (and it's been done to death) that if the goal is to prevent deaths from inadvertent spins I believe the effort is doomed to failure in that almost all the fatalities occur in the well-know base-to-final scenario where there simply isn't enough vertical distance to recover. Better to teach coordination in turns and stall recognition, recovery. Also there is the 'practical' side of how many student pilots would we lose after their introduction to spins. Goodness knows, initial exposure to stalls is already a big issue with fresh students. -- -- =----- Good Flights! Cecil PP-ASEL-IA Student - CP-ASEL Check out my personal flying adventures from my first flight to the checkride AND the continuing adventures beyond! Complete with pictures and text at: www.bayareapilot.com "I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things." - Antoine de Saint-Exupery - "We who fly, do so for the love of flying. We are alive in the air with this miracle that lies in our hands and beneath our feet" - Cecil Day Lewis - |
#10
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snip
Also there is the 'practical' side of how many student pilots would we lose after their introduction to spins. Goodness knows, initial exposure to stalls is already a big issue with fresh students. Cecil The apprehension is quite common and normal. The difference is in how a CFI deals with it and adjusts the training technique to make a student comfortable with stalls. I feel the same is true with spins. As a CFI since 1966, and having done literally thousands of spins in a variety of aircraft, I have long touted the value of good spin training. My first spin was on my first solo when I was out doing practice stalls and got sloppy and ended up in a spin. It fascinated me and I did several more before I went back in to do some T/Go's. when my CFI asked where I had gone, I told him about the spins, and he simply said, "OK" and that was that. No big deal. Of course that was in the late 50's when spins and training in them were a common place thing. I still maintain the reason for the FAA backing down from spin training was due to the people making the regs were afraid to do them because of their own lack of training or proficiency in spins in that transition time of the 60's/70's. Most recently I did a short spin session with a student before he went for his check ride. He told me he was really nervous about it from the horror stories he had read. I assured him we were not going to do anything dangerous and he'd be shocked at how relatively mild the whole thing would be after the fact. Pretty much turned out that way and calmed his fears that a spin was tatamount to a smoking hole in the ground. It almost falls in the same catagory with tailwheel training and finding someone capable of teaching in them. It has turned into a mysterious arcane art demanding superior pilot skills, etc, etc, ad naseum. Such nonsense. Even though spins are required of the CFI applicant, I often wonder how many of them actually have done them rather than just get a sign off by a CFI who is afraid to do them and so the problem propagates itself. More opportunity for hangar talk..... Ol Shy & Bashful - |
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