Did the Germans have the Norden bombsight?

"The target for the Eighth on 4 April was the Renault plant near Paris. Three
diversions drew the German defenders away and permitted the lead 305th Bomb
Group to destroy the complex; 498 out of 500 bombs fell within the target
area."

The target area was "France," right?

vince norris

"The target for the Eighth on 4 April was the Renault plant near Paris.
Three
diversions drew the German defenders away and permitted the lead 305th Bomb
Group to destroy the complex; 498 out of 500 bombs fell within the target
area."

The target area was "France," right?

No.

"The first mission of April brought more evidence of the value of the
bombardment campaign when Fortresses left the Renault works at Paris a smoking
ruin; It took six months to resume full production, denying the enemy 3,075
lorries...the target was picked out in spite of industrial haze that shrouded
much of the city...bombs of the 305th Fortresses struck at least 19 factory
buildings..."

--"The Mighty Eighth" by Roger Freeman

Walt

In article ,
Peter Twydell writes:
In article , Krztalizer
writes

Does anybody know where these pickle barrels came from? Were they Lend
Lease? AFAIK we didn't make pickle barrels in the UK at that time, and
I'm not sure if we do now. You can't get the wood, you know

Of course, the Mosquito figured into all of this. Pickle barrels had been
coopered in the UK for many dozens of years in the run up to the "disagreement
among cousins" (as Goebbels described the conflict between Britain and
Germany). During that rather spirited disagreement, the de Havilland company
created the aerial equivelent of a grand piano in its DH 98, and this new
wooden wonder required every barrel shaper, clog carver, and cabinet finisher
in the realm to bend their oars in production of the Mosquito.


What a load of balsa.

The aeronautical connection nearly ended in Bristol in the twenties. See
http://www.pfabristol.flyer.co.uk/december02.htm and look at the Type
72. If that's not a barrel, I'd like to know what is.

However, Britain did fall behind in the Flying Pickle Barrel Race,
losing the initiative firt to Stipa in Italy
http://naca.central.cranfield.ac.uk/report.php?NID=1156

And then the Granville Brothers in the U.S.

This lack of British Progrss in Flying Barrels forced them to acquire
Brewster 339 Buffalos to redress the balance.


But what of the pickle barrel? Production in the UK ceased abruptly with the
first order to DH - an immediate vaccum was created, a wartime critical
shortage in pickle barrels. Just another damned inconvenience of the war.
Even with the required coupons, there was simply no guarantee a proper pickle
barrel could be found.


Barnes Wallis came up with the Grand Slam, his Ten Tun Bomb, which was
described at the time as "firkin enormous".

Well, you all are familiar with the story by now. While touring the great
pickel barrel factories that once lined the Mississippi, Japanese
future-Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto could only marvel at America's pickle barrel
production capability. "We're doomed", he muttered. (In Japanese, of
course.)

Or Boston-accented English. Back Bay, of course (He did go to
Hahvahd, after all)


Later he was able to use his acquired knowledge - one captured JN 25 message,
decoded in the days prior to Pearl Harbor, included the exact locations of each
of the pickle barrels on board the Oklahoma and the Arizona - only luck and a
Seaman named Mojo Nixon kept the Nevada from suffering a similar fate; he is
widely credited with having moved the Nevada's pickle barrel to the dock
alongside the battleship, so he could polish it on the early morning of
December 7th, 19 Fo-tee-won. Tragically... well.. you know.

This devious acquisition of knowledge of American Pickle Barrel
construction methods probably accounts for the poor showing of
Brewster's Flying Barrels against the Japanese, in relation to their
performance in Finland.


All of this is pickle barrel history, known by most school children.

This wasn't taught at my school, unfortunately, at least not to me. I
gave up History and Latin to concentrate on the techy stuff.

The mystery of the English wartime pickle barrels is solved by checking the
makers mark on the bottom of one of the few wartime survivors - on the Imperial
War Museum's pickle barrel, "Old Smellysides", all of the coopers signed their
names as it was the 5,000th pickle barrel to roll off the production line at
the Cape Girardeau plant. That makers mark, faded by decades of service and
overpolishing, is clearly the mark of Henry Ford. Perhaps most famous for his
innovation in pickle barrel production, he earned the nickname 'the American
Coopernicus'.

And demonstrated the shortfall of British Mass Coopsrage
methods. (Spokeshaves vs. pen-knives, Hot Coffee in the Cafeteria, 28
flavors of Ice Cream in the Restaurant...)

I suspect you're trying to make me the butt of your humour. Bloody rude
colonial. :-)

Are you trying to make us look like Hog's Heads?

--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster

Cub Driver wrote in message . ..
For example the Stuvi sights used in Ju-87s and Ju-88s were highly
advanced, computerized sights for their day.

Did they ever bomb from 25,000 feet?

A few Arado 234B Jet bombers made attacks from 10,000 meters using the
Lotfe 7E conected aircraft conected to the Patin autopilot.

Ju 86P with diesels attacked from about 50,000 feet. I don't know if
they used the Lotfe 7.

There were a few specialised Do 217s with a 3rd engine in the
fueselage for engine pressurisingation that could attack from this
altitude and with a small bombload.

The only other aircraft that would be capable of this would be the Ju
388 with the BMW801T (turbo supercharged and intercooled ) version of
the famous engine.

I believe about 300 were built but these were mainly the reconaisance
versions though they may have had a secondary bombing capability.
Interesting aircraft. It had a remotely sighted tail turret. A an
ofset duel periscope with heads in both the ventral and dorsal
position allowed the rear gunner to sweep the upper and lower
hemisphere, avoid the obstruction of the tail and aim the guns.

The Ju 388 nightfiughter variant was meant to tackle B29s attacking at
night so there is no doubt it could opperate at a good speed and
height.

Basically Germany, just like the Russians did not have a strategic
bomber force. By the time the He 177A5 had overcome its considerable
teething problems there wasn't the fuel or escorts to opperate it.

Even Ju88s with a deepened belly for carrying all its bombs internally
which had a maned tail turret never got of the ground. There simply
weren't the resources to change the production lines.


Or perhaps it would be fairer to say 20,000 feet, since that was the
USAAC boast involving the pickle barrel.

Attacks from 20,000 feet seem to have been unimpressive. CEPs of 1000
ft were typical.

Accuracy must decrease with the square or cube of altitude.



From what I have read of Japanese raids, 13,000 feet (4,000 meters)
was the most common bomb-run altitude. I should think that when you
increase the altitude by 50 percent (or 100 percent, in the case of
the actual B-17 raids over Germany) you increase the difficulty many
times over.

Art Kramer seems to imply that most of their B26 raids were
8,000-10,000 feet. That would be becuase they actualy had to hit
their targets eg bridges rather than do area bombardment.

I think there would be no way to hit a bridge or even a railway yard
from the height of 20,000 feet.

Whereas an attack at 8000 ft with a stick of bombs would be bound to
straddle and hit the target: bridge, docked ship, wharf, railway yard.

There is some data on the use of the USAAFs azon and razon guided
bombs on the net. Hit rates on brideges I think whent from about 0.5%
using unguided bombs to about 15%-24% using these bombs from
liberators opperating at what would probably be 20,000 feet.

The fact that LeMay went from using B29s at 25,000-30,000 feet to 8000
feet is an indication of the lack of accuracy. Small errors are
opened up to huge error and no wind computing sight can compensate for
multiple layers of wind.

I think using a densely sequenced stick of bombs against long target
like ships bridges however worked fairly well.


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! blog www.vivabush.org

"The first mission of April brought more evidence of the value of the
bombardment campaign when Fortresses left the Renault works at Paris a
smoking
ruin; It took six months to resume full production, denying the enemy 3,075
lorries...the target was picked out in spite of industrial haze that
shrouded
much of the city...bombs of the 305th Fortresses struck at least 19 factory
buildings..."

As luck would have it, I have a report on the destruction of the French
automobile industry dated 1 Nov. 1944 that reviews the effects of bombing
attacks. It states that the industry was essentially destroyed by May of that
year.
"The works completely or partially destroyed by American bombing comprise
Goodrich, Dunlop and Michelin tire factories, Renault, Ford, Berliet, SKF and
SRO ball bearing works, Standard Oil Co.'s refineries, Castrol oil works,
Potez, Farman, Salmson, Caudron and Gnome & Rhone aircraft factories. Peugeot
was bombed by the English and the foundry wiped out. Citroen was attacked by
the Germans in June, 1940, the fires then started destroying documents but
leaving the main works intact."
Long discussion of the Comite' de l'Organization de l'Automobile, an
organization set up by the Germans to manage French production. Long
discussion of Francois Lehideux, Renault exec who became head of the COA and
was also Minister of Industrial Production, arrested after liberation as a
traitor, along with executives of a number of other auto and tire companies.
Long discussion of extensive and determined German/French quisling efforts to
maximize production.
"Despite these efforts, as a result of US bombing, production declined until by
the spring of 1944 the industrial life of France had practically ceased to
exist.,,,Citroen shut down on May 12, Renault one day later. The French Fiat
company shut down the same day. Peugeot switched to night production because
of electricty shortages, but the workers went on strike to protest night
work.... As a general rule there was no production after the first week of May,
1944...
"Citroen hands were sent to clear up the wreckage of the railway line at
Juvisy, bombed by the RAF. It was well known that the men did little work and
a lot of pillaging....
"There were two attacks on the Goodrich factory at Colombes near Paris. In the
second attack, the place was wiped out, without the loss of life. The Gnome
and Rhone plant close by was attacked at the same time but here more than 600
people were killed owing to lack of shelters and an order that hands should
scatter to the fields. When the Dunlop plant at Montlucon was brought down
only 4 people were killed....
The Renault facilities were considerably destroyed as the result of four
attacks that caused little loss of life..."
Vehicle production figures:
1941 = 56,743
1942 = 44,792
1943 = 20,960
1944 (first six months) =2,512
At the beginning of 1940 France had a total vehicle population of 2.6 million.
As of mid-1944 the population was 620,000.
This is a very long and detailed document, and quite interesting, with details
of Gestapo men assigned to plants, working hours 4 a.m. to 8 p.m. with a
breakfast of malt beverage, lunch of vegetable soup, dinner of vegetable soup,
the requisitioning of bicycles by "rule of Mauser," German officers driving
around in Packard and Buick cars...all sorts of interesting details of life in
occupied industrial France under air attack.
The author is anonymous but is describe as "an experience automotive specialist
who has spent the greater part of his life in France," and writes from
"personal observation and first-hand knowledge."




Chris Mark

Ju 86P with diesels attacked from about 50,000 feet. I don't know if
they used the Lotfe 7.

"Attacked"? I always thought the 45K+ missions were flown by cameras-only Ju
86s.

I think there would be no way to hit a bridge or even a railway yard
from the height of 20,000 feet.

Yards can be a mile long and half mile wide. You could hit that from space.



The fact that LeMay went from using B29s at 25,000-30,000 feet to 8000
feet is an indication of the lack of accuracy. Small errors are
opened up to huge error and no wind computing sight can compensate for
multiple layers of wind.

Realize also that those B-29s were dropping a far larger percentage of
relatively light fire bombs, in comparison to the 8th's general preference for
GP and HE. Those little bombs scatter in the wind in comparison to a good old
fashioned 500 pounder.

I think using a densely sequenced stick of bombs against long target
like ships bridges however worked fairly well.

Against moored ships, yes, against ships at sea, far less so. Midway results
are a good example.

v/r
Gordon
====(A+C====
USN SAR

An LZ is a place you want to land, not stay.

"WalterM140" wrote in message
...
"The target for the Eighth on 4 April was the Renault plant near Paris.
Three
diversions drew the German defenders away and permitted the lead 305th
Bomb
Group to destroy the complex; 498 out of 500 bombs fell within the
target
area."

The target area was "France," right?

No.

"The first mission of April brought more evidence of the value of the
bombardment campaign when Fortresses left the Renault works at Paris a
smoking
ruin; It took six months to resume full production, denying the enemy
3,075
lorries...the target was picked out in spite of industrial haze that
shrouded
much of the city...bombs of the 305th Fortresses struck at least 19
factory
buildings..."

--"The Mighty Eighth" by Roger Freeman

Walt

From www.renault.com

Unlike other manufacturers who worked for the enemy by day and the
Resistance at night, the Renault management did not ask the Allies to bomb
their factories, as Peugeot did. So Louis Renault did not understand why
Billancourt was the prime target of RAF bombers in March 1942 and on several
subsequent occasions.

Fact is the factory was repeatedly attacked and the most damaging raid
of them was that by the RAF in March 1942 which destroyed 40% of the
factory

Keith

In article , Krztalizer
writes
this new
wooden wonder required every barrel shaper, clog carver, and cabinet
finisher
in the realm to bend their oars in production of the Mosquito.


What a load of balsa.

Precisely.

The aeronautical connection nearly ended in Bristol in the twenties. See
http://www.pfabristol.flyer.co.uk/december02.htm and look at the Type
72. If that's not a barrel, I'd like to know what is.

Looks like a GB built by the hand-crafting gents over at Jaguar...

But what of the pickle barrel? Production in the UK ceased abruptly with the
first order to DH - an immediate vaccum was created, a wartime critical
shortage in pickle barrels. Just another damned inconvenience of the war.
Even with the required coupons, there was simply no guarantee a proper
pickle
barrel could be found.


Barnes Wallis came up with the Grand Slam, his Ten Tun Bomb, which was
described at the time as "firkin enormous".

Thread drift alert! You have now begun the process of leading us off on a
'metal cylinder of unusually great size, packed with explosives' thread...


Not at all: Tuns is barrels, Firkins is barrels, and Butts is barrels,
but Cylinders is drums, so _that's_ OT!

(pedantic note: it was Upkeep, the dams weapon, that was cylindrical)

Well, you all are familiar with the story by now. While touring the great
pickel barrel factories that once lined the Mississippi, Japanese
future-Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto could only marvel at America's pickle barrel
production capability. "We're doomed", he muttered. (In Japanese, of
course.)
Later he was able to use his acquired knowledge - one captured JN 25
message,
decoded in the days prior to Pearl Harbor, included the exact locations of
each
of the pickle barrels on board the Oklahoma and the Arizona - only luck and
a
Seaman named Mojo Nixon kept the Nevada from suffering a similar fate; he is
widely credited with having moved the Nevada's pickle barrel to the dock
alongside the battleship, so he could polish it on the early morning of
December 7th, 19 Fo-tee-won. Tragically... well.. you know.

All of this is pickle barrel history, known by most school children.

This wasn't taught at my school, unfortunately, at least not to me. I
gave up History and Latin to concentrate on the techy stuff.

I had a classic American education - the word "Latin" was mention on three
occasions during the twelve years I irregularly attended class.

Yes, of course they were lend-lease. What a ridiculous thing to say.

I was only trying to find out.

I suspect you're trying to make me the butt of your humour.

Never, sir. I reserve my butt-making humor for Michael and his Moon Landing
Hoax posts.

Bloody rude colonial. :-)

Redundant, sir.


Or is it tautological? I never know the difference.

G

--
Peter

Ying tong iddle-i po!

On 29 Apr 2004 14:51:56 GMT, nt (Krztalizer) wrote:

Of course, the Mosquito figured into all of this. Pickle barrels had been
coopered in the UK for many dozens of years i

I suppose the rain accumulating in the barrels served as a breeding
ground for the mozzies?

By the way, has it really stopped raining in Britain? All the movies I
see these days are shot in sunlight. Not at all the clime I remember
at Manchester! when I wrote the following:

It always rains in Blighty.
The gods need not be urged.
For why incur Almighty
When the whole damn Isle's submerged?


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! blog www.vivabush.org

On 30 Apr 2004 05:00:14 GMT, nt (Krztalizer) wrote:

The fact that LeMay went from using B29s at 25,000-30,000 feet to 8000
feet is an indication of the lack of accuracy. Small errors are
opened up to huge error and no wind computing sight can compensate for
multiple layers of wind.

Realize also that those B-29s were dropping a far larger percentage of
relatively light fire bombs, in comparison to the 8th's general preference for
GP and HE.

I'm not sure that the 20th AF was dropping incendiaries all that much,
before the March fire raid. It was a whole radical change in tactics,
not merely a change in altitude.

The problem over Japan as I understand it was the jet stream--indeed,
that this was the *discovery* of the jet stream. Flying with the jet
stream, the planes were too fast for the Norden to be effective.
Flying against it, they were too vulnerable to flak. (Winter of
1944-45.) And I suppose that flying at right angles to it meant they
couldn't hit anything, though I never read that.

The 20th dropped plenty of HE, though I confess I don't know what
weight the bombs were. (There was a plan, in the summer of 1945, to
hang a Grand Slam or Tall Boy under each wing of a B-29. The planes
were actually being modified for this task in the U.S. when the war
ended.) And the last raid involved only one fire raid as I recall, and
several mining missions, with all other missions being HE on plants
and arsenals.


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! blog www.vivabush.org