Flarmnet

I am surprised no one corrected you yet...
We managed just fine before flarm??? Did you count how many midairs used to happen in contests and non contests all over the world before flarm comparing to the number of midair’s since flarm was introduced??
While you don’t want some idiot flying with flarm near you, I don’t want some idiot flying without flarm anywhere near me. Other than in a gaggle, if you believe you can see and avoid another glider in collision course with you , you give yourself way too much credit. Your chances of midair are the same as if you were flying blind folded. The only thing that saved you so far is the big sky.


Ramy

wrote on 3/4/2020 11:23 AM:
I don’t want some idiot staring at his flarm hoping it saves them or me. I want that idiots eyes OUT of the cockpit and scanning for traffic. How did most of us ever keep from smacking into each other in pre-flarm decades when we had 70 plus glider contests doing out n returns? We managed just fine cause guys knew they had to depend on their vigilance to stay alive.. And before you rush in and say back in the “old days� we did have a bunch of midairs, let me remind you that the vast majority of those were in gaggles with a bunch of guys where a flarm is useless and only your eyes and personal vigilance counted.

How many hours have your flown with a Flarm? I've flown about a thousand hours
with a Flarm in two different gliders.

I don't know anyone that stares at their flarm in gaggles. I, as I believe the
others do, glance at it when I lose track of the guy behind me or below me, and
those are gliders I've never been good following with my eyes - they are generally
out of sight!

In fact, I never stare at it, even when the nearest glider is miles away. It only
takes a glance to see what I want to see, and my device alerts me to potential
collisions by voice. Before I had voice, I had to glance at the screen on top of
the glare shield for the threat location - but no staring!

Remember, the device was developed because pilots became convinced we were NOT
doing a good job of locating collision threats.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

Lets see.... coming up on 7,000 hours all med and low level flying, ....6 years with flarm or adsb equipment, I don’t think you will find I am low time lol.

As for “staring at your flarm�, thats an expression, read the whole context, the point is dependance upon instrumentation vs proper airmanship. Name every one glider midair that has occurred in level cruising flight and I will give you 8 that occured in gaggles. Flarm is useless there, its your eyes and situational awareness that give you the best chance of staying alive. Do I use collision avoidance technology? Yes, do I depend on it? No. I think I will live longer, my flight hours without serious incident are proving it. I hope you have the same track record now and in the future.

Glad to know you using flarm for 6 years. I was under the impression you are not based on your post. Also without signing names (I always sign) we don’t know who we correspond with. Apparently we have similar experience: 8000 hours soaring here (all cross country, not contest) , close to 3000 with flarm and ads-b with a lot of traffic from both, and I wouldn’t want to fly without it, just as I wouldn’t want to fly without chute. Since it is only effective if the majority of us are using it, I wouldn’t post any negative comment about it. I am pretty sure that no one is looking down in their panel when in gaggle.
As for the ratio of midair’s in gaggle vs non gaggle, I didn’t do an in depth analysis, but my recollection is more than 50% of the fatal one were not in gaggle. The ones in gaggle tend to be more survivable due to lower impact energy (such as exchanging paint).

Ramy

On Wednesday, March 4, 2020 at 6:19:44 PM UTC-7, wrote:
Lets see.... coming up on 7,000 hours all med and low level flying, ....6 years with flarm or adsb equipment, I don’t think you will find I am low time lol.

As for “staring at your flarm�, thats an expression, read the whole context, the point is dependance upon instrumentation vs proper airmanship. Name every one glider midair that has occurred in level cruising flight and I will give you 8 that occured in gaggles. Flarm is useless there, its your eyes and situational awareness that give you the best chance of staying alive. Do I use collision avoidance technology? Yes, do I depend on it? No. I think I will live longer, my flight hours without serious incident are proving it. I hope you have the same track record now and in the future.

I'm not an experienced glider pilot, but from what I've gathered, Flarm is not something you "depend" on to avoid mid-air collisions. It is something that "augments" your situational awareness. This, and any other collision avoidance system is a good thing.

wrote on 3/4/2020 5:19 PM:
Lets see.... coming up on 7,000 hours all med and low level flying, ....6 years with flarm or adsb equipment, I don’t think you will find I am low time lol.

As for “staring at your flarm�, thats an expression, read the whole context, the point is dependance upon instrumentation vs proper airmanship. Name every one glider midair that has occurred in level cruising flight and I will give you 8 that occured in gaggles. Flarm is useless there, its your eyes and situational awareness that give you the best chance of staying alive. Do I use collision avoidance technology? Yes, do I depend on it? No. I think I will live longer, my flight hours without serious incident are proving it. I hope you have the same track record now and in the future.

I've used Flarm in many gaggles. It does not seem useless to me. Perhaps it
depends to some extent on the gliders in the gaggle; eg, all 1-26s flying tightly
and slowly might cause more unnecessary warnings than a bunch of open class gliders.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

I've had a Flarm since 2005 and I think it helps, though I regret that it
it is
proprietary device rather than ICAO. Why did I buy it, and the 4 later ones
as it
developed?

Mainly :- recognition of the fact that while pilots may well look out
perfectly, and
see lots of traffic - this traffic is normally not what will hit you. The
risk traffic is
stationary in the view you have. Seeing the other stuff may make you feel
good, however.

that's pretty well it. But flying with a French instructor in the Alps
further
convinced me. He had sharp eyes, pointed out mushrooms on mountaintops
while circling above them (literally). But remarked Flarm picked up twice
as
much as he did.


At 04:42 05 March 2020, Eric Greenwell wrote:
wrote on 3/4/2020 5:19 PM:
Lets see.... coming up on 7,000 hours all med and low level flying,
...=
=2E6 years with flarm or adsb equipment, I don=E2=80=99t think you will
f=
ind I am low time lol.
=20
As for =E2=80=9Cstaring at your flarm=E2=80=9D, thats an expression,
re=
ad the whole context, the point is dependance upon instrumentation vs
pro=
per airmanship. Name every one glider midair that has occurred in level
c=
ruising flight and I will give you 8 that occured in gaggles. Flarm is
us=
eless there, its your eyes and situational awareness that give you the
be=
st chance of staying alive. Do I use collision avoidance technology?
Yes,=
do I depend on it? No. I think I will live longer, my flight hours
witho=
ut serious incident are proving it. I hope you have the same track
record=
now and in the future.
=20
I've used Flarm in many gaggles. It does not seem useless to me. Perhaps
=
it=20
depends to some extent on the gliders in the gaggle; eg, all 1-26s
flying=
tightly=20
and slowly might cause more unnecessary warnings than a bunch of open
cla=
ss gliders.

--=20
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email=
me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"

https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...s/download-th=
e-guide-1

Never mind, it's always the same. They invented GPS. "Everyone is staring at their GPS now, old times were safer with thumb on the map and compass (yeah right)". Then came moving maps. "Everyone is staring at their map display now, old times were safer with just GPS". Flarm: "Everyone is staring at their Flarm now, old times were safer with just GPS and moving map". And so on, it just doesn't stop.

Yep Krasn, it never will.

Somehow the old guys kept themselves alive and grew old in aviation, I wonder how they did that? Must have just been lots of luck over the years, yep, thats what it was, they were/are just lucky guys. Not much airmanship involved, not much acquired and applied knowledge borrowed from past mistakes, their own and others. Knowledge that became ingrained into permanent memory, and habit and applied into proper muscle response. No that wasn’t it, they were just lucky. Boy were they lucky guys!

No, some will say, luck is only one factor keeping those old guys alive. But nowadays, it must be all the new technology, The new magic box. Thats what does it. Its the new “boxes�. Wow, we went from paper maps to gps to flarm, thats what kept them alive and keeps us alive. Remember many say we must remove as much brain action from the equation as we can, cause we all know the brain is flawed and most all accidents are pilot error in the end, so lets remove the brain and active experience based decision making from the list of variables. Thats the solution. Lets let the box do all the thinking for us.

Whats next? What will make us ultimately safer? Oh I know, lets go for automation! Man do we need a sailplane autopilot, tied into all our new instrumentation, and coupled with ATC. Sit back boys, the bird will fly herself, avoid traffic, navigate, find your thermal for you, tell you what speed to cruise at, beep at you when someone is near, recalculate the fastest route, give you live wx, live map, live “traffic�, and tell you where to go. Oh wait! We have all of that already. Only thing missing is the servo to move the stick n rudders.

Whats next to keep us all safer, oh I know, lets motorize all our sailplanes, that way we never have to land out, never get in a bind, never have to think about where to put her down until we’re right on the deck. That motor is our salvation. Never have to learn how or if we can shoehorn our bird into a dinky field. Never actually practice it in real life. Heck, I got hundreds of thousands of bucks in this bird, I don’t want to risk a scratch practicing super low energy landings and max braking! Yeh that will definitely make us all safer.

Oh and I know something even better! We can fly contests where you even get to use your engine part of the time on the task. Wow, aren’t we really “soaring� now! I just can’t wait!

Hey I know, lets just all go on-line and fly our tasks on the computer, gee wiz, our next Nationals and Worlds can be right here, in the comfort of home racing against the “best� in the world sipping a cup of coffee. No outlanding worries, collision worries, fatigue worries, just simulation. YES, theres the answer! Lets all arrive at ultimate safety!

Oh wait, how did that heart attack slip up on you yesterday? The doctors said it was due to your poor diet and lack of excercise from your many hours of sim-glider flying.

I guess we forgot to build a magic box to take care of that particular factor. Somebody better get on that right away. We sure need to stay ahead of the curve on this safety thing.

The statement that Flarm is worthless in gaggles 100% incorrect in my experience. When circling with others in a controlled fashion my flarm is quiet. BUT when a conflict arises it lets me know, real quick.

Anyone who thinks those Flarm developers are getting rich off developing and selling Flarm needs to rethink that, the market is tiny.
The mid air problem is serious, and is often times fatal, that's why Flarm was developed.

I applaud those guys! Flarm works great and in the big scheme of things its not very expensive.
To anybody on the fence about buying a Flarm Unit: Just do it! Its a proven technology for many years now and you will surprised on how much traffic is out there you never see, even while looking hard for it. If you don't like it you can always sell it.
Nick
T