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#81
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ATC Handling of Low-Fuel American Flight
Maybe, how much time was available? If the AA plane was in
DFW approach airspace, it was maybe 5-6 minutes out, how long would clearing all the other traffic take? On a busy day at Wichita, there might be three other aircraft, at DFW, it would be dozens. How long does it take? BTHOOM, but it does take some measurable time. ATC has limitations, they can be UNABLE just as pilots can be unable. If the AA plane was over Ardmore, then DFW had plenty of time, if the AA plane was close-in, there would not be time to clear the space. A PIC request/demand does not alter time. "Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message nk.net... | | "Jim Macklin" wrote in message | ... | | Only after the other traffic was out of the way. IF [the | unknown none of us know] the plane was a 5 minute out | straight in to 17 and it would take 11 minutes to clear all | the other airplanes out of the way, a hold would be | required. | | What was the traffic count and where was each airplane, | which way do you turn them so they don't collide with the | airplane in distress or each other, what traffic was at the | other airports on the Dallas/Ft. Worth area and how would it | be effected? | | So far, only the President of the United States gets | airspace that clear, all the time. | | | The other traffic would be out of the way by the time the plane arrived.. | | |
#82
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ATC Handling of Low-Fuel American Flight
It does seem that you had "time" for you and ATC to manage.
I don't know just where the TUL-DFW emergency began, do you. It was in the DFW area as far as I recall from the other posts, ATC offered other airports and the pilot declined [which raises the question in my mind of just how serious the pilot was treating his emergency] and ATC did get him safely on the ground. I am an absolutist on the subject of PIC rights, as I am about gun-rights, and property rights. But I am also aware that even Doctor Welby [or House] can't save everybody. The reason for the TFR may have been worries about terrorism and threats to the President, but 30 NM does give time for ATC emergencies too. My point is that pilot's emergency authority allows deviations as needed [and is a get out of jail free] but some request can be done within the available time and some can't. I have never seen or heard an accurate or knowledgeable report on aviation, guns, or other technical topics on the television. Just the other day on the History Channel, the Gunny said that the B36 used turboprop engines. Is it better for ATC to give the pilot what he wants or what he needs? "Sam Spade" wrote in message ... | Jim Macklin wrote: | Only after the other traffic was out of the way. IF [the | unknown none of us know] the plane was a 5 minute out | straight in to 17 and it would take 11 minutes to clear all | the other airplanes out of the way, a hold would be | required. | | | They don't have to have a sterile environment like they do for Air Force | One. As you say, no aircraft can be within 30 miles of the airport when | Air Force One is approaching or departing. | | This is entirely different. | | When I was flying the line I had only one genuine emergency and it was | on a clear day at ORD. We had just been shipped over to approach from | center. We told approach we needed 14R. They already knew the nature | of our emergency, having been briefed by the center. Once they were | directly aware of our need for 14R they gave us a new frequency. | | Turns out we were the only flight on that frequency. We were about 25 | miles out and pointed directly to 14R. We never heard about how they | cleared the way for us (we were too busy to care) but it was like we | owned the airport. | | As we got fairly close in we could see aircraft using 14L, but 14R was | our's. | | DFW has a better layout than ORD and the proper handling of a genuine | emergency could have been handled as well as, or better, than the | handling at ORD I described. | | My emergency was before the PATCO strike, for whatever that may be worth. | | Another situation on my airline. A friend of mine had two engines | failed enroute in a 727. This is a very rare event, but it is a trained | maneuver. Once the grear is down and final landing flaps (flaps 5 in | this case) are selected there is no going around. The emergency started | about 80 miles out from LAX inbound. Everything was goind good until | they were handed off to the tower and they heard the tower still using | the runway they were assigned. The captain told them, loud and clear, | that the aircraft was incapable of going around and if they didn't stop | using the runway right now, they were landing along side of whatever | traffic they might be foolish enough to have on the runway. | | That got it cleared up. | | The AAL guy absolutely should have done about the same thing. |
#83
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ATC Handling of Low-Fuel American Flight
Jim Macklin wrote:
Is it better for ATC to give the pilot what he wants or what he needs? What he states he needs. I don't want anyone on the ground deciding that for me, except for maintenance engineering when there is time. |
#84
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ATC Handling of Low-Fuel American Flight
Jim Macklin wrote:
If you were the pilot with the low fuel and had declared an emergency, would you want a downwind straight in or an expedited downwind and base/final if both took the same time? What if the straight in takes 30 seconds longer while traffic clear your flight path? Have all pilots turned blonde? I want the runway I have decided is best for me. If I could have landed 30 seconds sooner on some other runway let them show me that at the hearing. I would like to think I would have had it right. |
#85
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ATC Handling of Low-Fuel American Flight
I'm glad you're pilot's certificate made you omnipotent, I
always suggested alternate course of action and asked "why?" I read on another post that the plane was 81 miles out, if so, then ATC had the time. But what are the facts, where was the plane, when was an emergency declared, when was the runway requested? I'm am not defending ATC or the pilot, the facts should speak. But most of what I've seen has been conjecture based on TV reports that have been edited for impact and TV commercial space. "Sam Spade" wrote in message ... | Jim Macklin wrote: | | | Is it better for ATC to give the pilot what he wants or what | he needs? | | What he states he needs. I don't want anyone on the ground deciding | that for me, except for maintenance engineering when there is time. |
#86
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ATC Handling of Low-Fuel American Flight
"Jim Macklin" wrote in message ... From a pilot's seat for many years, at such little airports as DFW, ATL, DEN,STL, ORD, etc. Many hours in the cab and TRACON as a visitor, watching airports "turn around." Being given ATC priority during my emergencies and seeing other pilots get priority handling. So no ATC experience, just as I thought. What was the purpose of the airport's "turn around" that you watched? |
#87
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ATC Handling of Low-Fuel American Flight
"Jim Macklin" wrote in message ... And if the time required to move that traffic is longer than the time required for the aircraft in distress to fly downwind and land, which is the "best" solution? Irrelevant. The time required to move that traffic was less than the time required for the aircraft in distress to fly downwind and land. Are you related to Norm Melick? |
#88
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ATC Handling of Low-Fuel American Flight
During my one in-air emergency (partial engine failure in a 172), I did
squawk 7700 as I called a radar facility, and it helped. The controller then gave me a squawk code. There wasn't going to be any handoff, and I think changing codes stopped alarms at his position and many others. David Mitty wrote: On 2/23/2007 6:21 PM, Roy Smith wrote the following: If you've already told the controller you have an emergency, squawking 7700 doesn't add anything to the situation. The 7700 stuff is for when you're out of radio contact. Au contraire. With a 7700 squawk then if the emergency situation wasn't mentioned in the handoff (which it possibly wasn't) then the next controller would still have known something was seriously wrong. (Now possibly if AA had squawked 7700 he would have been asked to switch off that code at some point, but we don't even know from the video whether he tried it.) |
#89
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ATC Handling of Low-Fuel American Flight
"Jim Macklin" wrote in message ... No emergency turn arounds, but I did see that it takes some time. Just how long it would take would depend on the location and number of aircraft. Did you ask any questions during your visits? Did you understand anything you heard or observed? Why did you assume it would be necessary to "turn the airport around" to deal with the emergency under discussion? |
#90
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ATC Handling of Low-Fuel American Flight
"Jim Macklin" wrote in message ... If you were the pilot with the low fuel and had declared an emergency, would you want a downwind straight in or an expedited downwind and base/final if both took the same time? What if the straight in takes 30 seconds longer while traffic clear your flight path? The straight-in is always quicker. Have all pilots turned blonde? You just don't get it. This is not a matter of opinion. You're simply incorrect. |
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