2 recent incidents

Two recent incidents which all sounds too familiar and we can all
learn from them:

1 - Another spoilers out/rudder waggle resulting in premature release
- How many more of those we need till we conclude that the rudder
waggle does NOT work? What happened to radio communication?
http://www.ntsb.gov/NTSB/brief.asp?e...03X00777&key=1

2 - Another restricted control due to unsecured item. I bet this
caused more accidents then we know of.
http://www.ntsb.gov/NTSB/brief.asp?e...06X00809&key=1

Ramy

On Jun 25, 4:17*pm, Ramy wrote:
Two recent incidents which all sounds too familiar and we can all
learn from them:

1 - Another spoilers out/rudder waggle resulting in premature release
- How many more of those we need till we conclude that the rudder
waggle does NOT work? What happened to radio communication?http://www.ntsb.gov/NTSB/brief.asp?e...03X00777&key=1

2 - Another restricted control due to unsecured item. I bet this
caused more accidents then we know of.http://www.ntsb.gov/NTSB/brief.asp?e...06X00809&key=1

Ramy

Yep, why we can't also have radio communications as well is beyond me.
Radio by itself has to be safer on average at low altitude. If the
towplane can climb to altitude then do that before waggling coz you
know the guy being pulled behind might get it wrong.This was a two
seater with two people on board in the low-mountains at who knows what
density altitude and so maybe the tow pilot was very worried about any
ability to climb higher if the spoilers came out again. Not clear if
the pilot looked at the wings to verify the spoiler were retracted or
not, or since they were bouncing in and out maybe he did and just
missed it. It could also be the PIC was in the back seat with
restricted visibility and could not do this. But there seems to be
too few places teaching to actually look at the wings when doing
spoiler tests prior to landing or if things are not going well to
verify the spoilers are not out. That was not hammered into me during
training but I now do it. I think the waggle signal is something that
needs to be a part of every glider pilot's BFR. With a prior
discussion or a recent fatal "ah does waggle means release?"
accident, the instructor had the tow pilot throw it at me on my last
BFR. BTW those Pawnees etc. with bold stripes painted on their rudder
really help the waggle stand out. Even if you think the waggle is not
a good idea you need to practice it because you can't control what a
tow pilot is going to do if your spoilers are out. Just like they
can't control absent minded glider pilots. I know things happen fast
in an critical situation but I don't get that people can't remember
"rock off". It looks like something is wrong with the broad standard
of instruction/proficiency.

I know opinions differ but I really like places that require calling
out "starting aerotow with spoilers" etc. to let the tow pilot know
the pilot is not asleep with the spoilers unlocked.

I'm particularly paranoid about unlocked spoilers because in the
ASH-26E your left hand comes off the spoilers you've just locked and
works the throttle for takeoff. Things are busier than in an aero-tow,
more to monitor/do, but if the climb does not feel right the first
thing is to verify the spoilers are closed. And this has bitten some
pretty experienced pilots.

Darryl

Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Jun 25, 4:17*pm, Ramy wrote:
Two recent incidents which all sounds too familiar and we can all
learn from them:

1 - Another spoilers out/rudder waggle resulting in premature release
- How many more of those we need till we conclude that the rudder
waggle does NOT work? What happened to radio
communication?http://www.nts
b.gov/NTSB/brief.asp?ev_id=20080603X00777&key=1

2 - Another restricted control due to unsecured item. I bet this
caused more accidents then we know
of.http://www.ntsb.gov/NTSB/brief.asp?
ev_id=20080606X00809&key=1

Ramy

Yep, why we can't also have radio communications as well is beyond me.
Radio by itself has to be safer on average at low altitude.

There seems to be a certain (accidental?) irony in reporting the two
accidents: in one case radio comm would presumably have made the signal
from the tow pilot clear, while in the other it was a loose radio that may
have blocked forward movement of the stick.

My instructor has placed a hand held radio in a waist bag secured to her.
But it isn't of much use during these early flights since she needs to have
her hands free to be ready to save us from screwups by the student. ;-)

How many more of those we need till we conclude that the rudder
waggle does NOT work?

I think this is a reasonably valid point. There HAVE been a number of
people who have misunderstood this signal.

Perhaps something else would be better. The question is what signal
would be a good replacement. You could have flashing lights on the
towplane, perhaps mounted just above the towhitch. The only thing is
you'd probably have to install two lights. Say one yellow and one red.

Yellow means you've got a problem, but if you can get it fixed pretty
quick we'll keep going. Red means get off now or I'm gonna dump you.

If you don't have two signals, I'd bet that we'd still have people
releasing when they didn't have to.

As I think about it, it might be best if there was a single array of
high output LEDs. When both "colors" of the array are "on" then you
have a single visible color that means "ok" (red and blue make green in
concept, but in emitted light that combination doesn't work). That way
the glider pilot can verify at the start that both signals "work" and
they stay "on" for the duration of the tow. If either the "warning" or
"get off" switches are selected in the cockpit then only the
corresponding "color" is then visible to the glider pilot. Perhaps with
the "warning" being a steady signal and "get off" being a rapid flash to
help with fast recognition and a sense of urgency.

Other thoughts?

On Jun 25, 6:07*pm, Gary Emerson wrote:
How many more of those we need till we conclude that the rudder

waggle does NOT work?

I think this is a reasonably valid point. *There HAVE been a number of
people who have misunderstood this signal.

Perhaps something else would be better. *The question is what signal
would be a good replacement. *You could have flashing lights on the
towplane, perhaps mounted just above the towhitch. *The only thing is
you'd probably have to install two lights. *Say one yellow and one red.

Yellow means you've got a problem, but if you can get it fixed pretty
quick we'll keep going. *Red means get off now or I'm gonna dump you.

If you don't have two signals, I'd bet that we'd still have people
releasing when they didn't have to.

As I think about it, it might be best if there was a single array of
high output LEDs. *When both "colors" of the array are "on" then you
have a single visible color that means "ok" (red and blue make green in
concept, but in emitted light that combination doesn't work). *That way
the glider pilot can verify at the start that both signals "work" and
they stay "on" for the duration of the tow. *If either the "warning" or
"get off" switches are selected in the cockpit then only the
corresponding "color" is then visible to the glider pilot. *Perhaps with
the "warning" being a steady signal and "get off" being a rapid flash to
help with fast recognition and a sense of urgency.

Other thoughts?

? We need less complication. It is the 21st century, a radio should
not be out of the question. "glider on tow check spoilers" is pretty
straightforward. If that does not work and the glider cannot tow
higher then fan the rudder.

Darryl

"Gary Emerson" wrote in message
...
How many more of those we need till we conclude that the rudder
waggle does NOT work?

I think this is a reasonably valid point. There HAVE been a number of
people who have misunderstood this signal.

Perhaps something else would be better. The question is what signal would
be a good replacement. You could have flashing lights on the towplane,
perhaps mounted just above the towhitch. The only thing is you'd probably
have to install two lights. Say one yellow and one red.

Yellow means you've got a problem, but if you can get it fixed pretty
quick we'll keep going. Red means get off now or I'm gonna dump you.

If you don't have two signals, I'd bet that we'd still have people
releasing when they didn't have to.

As I think about it, it might be best if there was a single array of high
output LEDs. When both "colors" of the array are "on" then you have a
single visible color that means "ok" (red and blue make green in concept,
but in emitted light that combination doesn't work). That way the glider
pilot can verify at the start that both signals "work" and they stay "on"
for the duration of the tow. If either the "warning" or "get off"
switches are selected in the cockpit then only the corresponding "color"
is then visible to the glider pilot. Perhaps with the "warning" being a
steady signal and "get off" being a rapid flash to help with fast
recognition and a sense of urgency.

Other thoughts?

The tuggie should condiser if a signal is needed. If they are climbing in
spite of open spoilers the best option is to wait until the glider could
release and land safely before wagging the rudder. A premature rudder wag
may have caused some of these incidents.

I wouldn't neccessarilly say radio is the simplest option. If a pilot can't
remember to close the spoilers, or notice that they are open, could he
operate a radio and fly a glider at the same time?

High brightness LED's are a really simple idea. Some tuggies could use them
as turn signals.

Bill D

On Jun 25, 8:02*pm, "Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote:
"Gary Emerson" wrote in message

...



How many more of those we need till we conclude that the rudder
waggle does NOT work?

I think this is a reasonably valid point. *There HAVE been a number of
people who have misunderstood this signal.

Perhaps something else would be better. *The question is what signal would
be a good replacement. *You could have flashing lights on the towplane,
perhaps mounted just above the towhitch. *The only thing is you'd probably
have to install two lights. *Say one yellow and one red.

Yellow means you've got a problem, but if you can get it fixed pretty
quick we'll keep going. *Red means get off now or I'm gonna dump you.

If you don't have two signals, I'd bet that we'd still have people
releasing when they didn't have to.

As I think about it, it might be best if there was a single array of high
output LEDs. *When both "colors" of the array are "on" then you have a
single visible color that means "ok" (red and blue make green in concept,
but in emitted light that combination doesn't work). *That way the glider
pilot can verify at the start that both signals "work" and they stay "on"
for the duration of the tow. *If either the "warning" or "get off"
switches are selected in the cockpit then only the corresponding "color"
is then visible to the glider pilot. *Perhaps with the "warning" being a
steady signal and "get off" being a rapid flash to help with fast
recognition and a sense of urgency.

Other thoughts?

The tuggie should condiser if a signal is needed. *If they are climbing in
spite of open spoilers the best option is to wait until the glider could
release and land safely before wagging the rudder. *A premature rudder wag
may have caused some of these incidents.

I wouldn't neccessarilly say radio is the simplest option. *If a pilot can't
remember to close the spoilers, or notice that they are open, could he
operate a radio and fly a glider at the same time?

High brightness LED's are a really simple idea. *Some tuggies could use them
as turn signals.

Bill D

Exactly, but this was a two place ship and may have been at high
density altitudes. . The glider pilot does not need to operate the
radio, he just has to listen. Yes he needs to be tuned to the right
frequency and have the volume up, etc. That's what preflight
checklists and radio checks are for, and yes people will still get
this wrong. But if the glider radio is not working then the rudder
waggle can be used and ultimately if necessary a rock off or rope
guillotine/release (again preferably at altitude).

BTW that BFR (or spring checkout) I mentioned should involve pulling
the spoilers open on tow at altitude, and maybe different tow speeds,
and just leaving them flapping around as well to see what they do.
This will show what it feels like and you get to experience the radio
call/signals from the tow plane that result.

I've only had spoilers pop open on a DG-1000S on tow, hit a sharp bump
at a few hundred feet and they popped (not properly closed no doubt by
yours truly) the Piggott hook did its job and the noise of the
spoilers vibrating up and down gets your attention. For Piggott hook
equipped gliders I think it is worth demonstrating this as well during
a BFR/spring checkout.

Darryl

On Jun 25, 11:33 pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Jun 25, 8:02 pm, "Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote:



"Gary Emerson" wrote in message

.. .

How many more of those we need till we conclude that the rudder
waggle does NOT work?

I think this is a reasonably valid point. There HAVE been a number of
people who have misunderstood this signal.

Perhaps something else would be better. The question is what signal would
be a good replacement. You could have flashing lights on the towplane,
perhaps mounted just above the towhitch. The only thing is you'd probably
have to install two lights. Say one yellow and one red.

Yellow means you've got a problem, but if you can get it fixed pretty
quick we'll keep going. Red means get off now or I'm gonna dump you.

If you don't have two signals, I'd bet that we'd still have people
releasing when they didn't have to.

As I think about it, it might be best if there was a single array of high
output LEDs. When both "colors" of the array are "on" then you have a
single visible color that means "ok" (red and blue make green in concept,
but in emitted light that combination doesn't work). That way the glider
pilot can verify at the start that both signals "work" and they stay "on"
for the duration of the tow. If either the "warning" or "get off"
switches are selected in the cockpit then only the corresponding "color"
is then visible to the glider pilot. Perhaps with the "warning" being a
steady signal and "get off" being a rapid flash to help with fast
recognition and a sense of urgency.

Other thoughts?

The tuggie should condiser if a signal is needed. If they are climbing in
spite of open spoilers the best option is to wait until the glider could
release and land safely before wagging the rudder. A premature rudder wag
may have caused some of these incidents.

I wouldn't neccessarilly say radio is the simplest option. If a pilot can't
remember to close the spoilers, or notice that they are open, could he
operate a radio and fly a glider at the same time?

High brightness LED's are a really simple idea. Some tuggies could use them
as turn signals.

Bill D

Exactly, but this was a two place ship and may have been at high
density altitudes. . The glider pilot does not need to operate the
radio, he just has to listen. Yes he needs to be tuned to the right
frequency and have the volume up, etc. That's what preflight
checklists and radio checks are for, and yes people will still get
this wrong. But if the glider radio is not working then the rudder
waggle can be used and ultimately if necessary a rock off or rope
guillotine/release (again preferably at altitude).

BTW that BFR (or spring checkout) I mentioned should involve pulling
the spoilers open on tow at altitude, and maybe different tow speeds,
and just leaving them flapping around as well to see what they do.
This will show what it feels like and you get to experience the radio
call/signals from the tow plane that result.

I've only had spoilers pop open on a DG-1000S on tow, hit a sharp bump
at a few hundred feet and they popped (not properly closed no doubt by
yours truly) the Piggott hook did its job and the noise of the
spoilers vibrating up and down gets your attention. For Piggott hook
equipped gliders I think it is worth demonstrating this as well during
a BFR/spring checkout.

Darryl



"Waggling the rudder” signal, like any other “secondary” signal is
perfectly OK.
THE PROBLEM most of those "absent minded" glider pilots have, is NOT
KNOWING a most important signal: The “Wave Off" signal. In my old
country, I was taught to release from tow plane only when I was rock
off. And only then. Period. As a result, I had a chance to see that
signal every time I took a tow. Hundreds times. I know that signal
very well. And to be safe you have to know this signal very well.
Practice, my young friends. What is wrong wit a mandatory waving off
the gliders at the end of the tow? Every day for practice…and once in
a lifetime for safety.
rrk

"Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote:
High brightness LED's are a really simple idea. Some tuggies could
use them as turn signals.

What if the tow pilot is also one of those automobile drivers who manage to
leave their turn signals on long after they've made their turn? ;-)

Some silly ideas:

Since the aircraft are attached anyway, one could just wrap the tow cable
with a couple strands of wire and rig things so the tow pilot can press a
button to zap the glider pilot, alerting them to check the spoilers.

An aft facing bull horn on the tow plane rigged so the tow pilot can speak
directly to the glider pilot sans radio ... and everyone else within a half
mile. :-)

Hey, there are such beasts:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...toryId=9501416

"CAP will be using their new Airborne Public Address System which was
primarily designed for Tsunami warning and relief operations along the
Oregon Coast."
http://www.salem-news.com/articles/a...cap_041008.php

In article "Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net writes:

I wouldn't neccessarilly say radio is the simplest option. If a pilot can't
remember to close the spoilers, or notice that they are open, could he
operate a radio and fly a glider at the same time?

He doesn't need to. He only needs to hear it.

Also, if he cannot fly and deal with a radio, perhaps he should be on the ground.
driving in the slow lane. with the turn signal blinking.


Alan