ASW27B prices falling

Since this thread has drifted to the relative merits of 15 vs. 18 meter
spans - I flew my LAK-17a in 15 meter configuration during the summer
months when I could fly with higher wing loading. I converted to 18
meters in the winter months for the lower sink rate. Since I don't care
about competition, that worked just fine for me.

On 8/15/2017 8:24 PM, Papa3 wrote:
I got my 15M tips after the fact, and I think everything (tips, trailer wingtip holders, installation) cost close to $10K. Was it worth it? It opens up 15M competitions and it also makes it more "sporting" to fly with all of my span-challenged friends. This year, I've got more flights in 15M than 18M.

P3

On Tuesday, August 15, 2017 at 4:45:40 PM UTC-4, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
On Tuesday, August 15, 2017 at 11:13:57 AM UTC-7, wrote:
There will surely be 15m tips for the V3.
15M tips are a very expensive option. 15 years ago for a V2C, the 15M tips were upwards of $7000 USD. Certainly more now.

So, you pay out the nose to get the outstanding performance of an 18M glider, then you pay even more to be able to fly it in a lower performance configuration. Makes no sense.

I wonder what % of 15/18M ships are sold with the 15M tip options.
In 2015 15 meter tips for an ASG-29 were about 7,500 Euro. It makes plenty of sense if it fits your flying. If you want to compete in both 15 and 18 meter contests, resale value, all your friends have 15 meter gliders and you like to fly with them.... etc. Two gliders for almost the price of one. I do know several 29E owners who did not get the 15 meter tips and I even know one pilot with a 29 who did not order the 18 meter tips. What makes no sense to you might make plenty of sense to someone else.

--
Dan, 5J

My impression (no idea how accurate it is) was that the move to 18M had less to do with a modest performance increase and more to do with what was considered to be a more viable platform for motors, in particular self launch. Having seen Francois Pin's really impressive ASW 27 FES conversion self launch at Cordele this year, I'm wondering how strong the 18M movement would have been if FES technology had been available when that class was launched. Perhaps the factories would have gotten behind 18M anyway just to sell more new gliders.

Chip Bearden

I have a 27 and cannot afford to upgrade to a 29 with engine which I would
have liked to do for the stronger competition scene.

I believe that there are jet retrofit options coming from PSR and M&D which
seems like a good solution for my increasing years. I am told the PSR works
out about $30k euro / dollars fitted.

Because of the weakness of the pound at the moment my refinished 27 is
probably worth about £55K so the package would owe me £80k which is at
least £40k less than the 29!

BTW I love my 27 having flown 2000 hours in it.

On Tuesday, August 15, 2017 at 10:57:41 PM UTC-7, wrote:
.... To some, $10K for an extra set of wingtips is almost incomprehensible when you can buy a glider for less than that.

....
Chip Bearden

Or since one usually buys the extra tips when they order the glider, the thought process is more likely, wow I can fly two classes for only an extra 4-5% increase in initial cost. And for the small increase in purchase price lowers you unit costs of 15/18 meter glider by half

My little 2 cents on this super interesting topic as a young pilot:

_When considering to buy an used ship, it's not only the purchasing price that is taken into account but also the resell value. How is it going to hold in the next years to come? No one knows but the increasing number of good sailplane manufacturers (Jonkers, Winward perf, LAK manufacturer, etc.) with excellent machines leaves me to believe this is going to drive prices down in the future.
_Having multiple racing classes is not going to drive growth but rather the opposite as the choice to race is based (for me at least) on whether I can have fun without too much risk. 18M planes theoretically out-glide 15M sailplanes and therefore seem to be more attractive. Open class is just too much of an hassle logistically speaking, it requires more skills and landing out is quite an adventure depending on the terrain. If I had to choose, I would go for the 18M as it is fun, fast and a good compromise between 15M and open-class.
_Sustainer/Motorized/pure? It's a touchy subject, flying with no engine is the purest form of gliding... However, having witnessed first hand my friends using the turbo to escape a land-out while I conceded my 'defeat' and landed-out for a very very long & frustrating retrieve, I must say I was envious of this little piece of engineering on their back! It's a nice fail-safe. Now, motorization is really the thing that takes it out of the crowd: you can go wherever you want, whenever you want. This is the purest form of liberty, which is what soaring is about.

All in all, as a young pilot who wants to learn and develop my skills as I age, here is what my plan would look like:
_Learn how to fly basic gliders (ASK-23/1-34/Pegasus/LS4) until being able to fly X-country on a regular basis - DONE
_Buy an used club glider with good performances (LS4? Pegasus? Discus?) and learn how to go further out (500km, 750km) building more and more experience on X-country flights. Start competing in Club contests. Unknown timeframe, several years for sure!
_Upon feeling okay (and after being checked by a CFI), transition to a high-performance sailplane with sustainer, making the transition to 15M class. This is where I would LOVE to fly a modified ASW27 FES as it is a good stepping stone to high performance competition.
_Ultimately, buy a motorized 18M ship (Ventus 2cM? ASH 26?) to go on soaring adventures, safaris, etc.
OR
_I could also stop at the 15M as performance is already amazing (Thank You B4 for all those inspiring videos!!!) and I would still be extremely satisfied flying those beautiful birds. I would just need this sustainer/motorization though.

That would be my plan, knowing that each step could take years... But it's like wine: the more you wait for a Grand Cru, the better it gets. But one should not wait too long otherwise you miss the golden period!

Now, this could explain the lack of interest for 27s: if I want to go up to 15M competition and stretch my limits, I need a sustainer that 27s don't have. Don't get me wrong, the ASW27 IS the most beautiful sailplane ever designed aesthetically and technically speaking. The best value for money also.. If it were to have a sustainer/FES/Jet/whatever, I would NOT hesitate for a second. However, it suffers from not having it and therefore could look less attractive than a Ventus 2bT (still beautiful, but less than the 27. Sorry Schempp-Hirth).

Again, my 2 cents. I would love to hear from other owners their buying process throughout their flying lives.. Extremely inspiring to see you guys with those amazing machines, thank you for showing us how it's done!

Cheers!

Oh Lord won't you buy me an ash thirty one. All my friends fly Stemmes and the club 1-26 just ain't fun...

Excellent plan Magnetar! Just don't put so much importance on the motor; motors are for old guys. Half the adventures of soaring are the adventures of landing out.



On Monday, August 21, 2017 at 9:28:04 AM UTC-7, Magnetar wrote:
My little 2 cents on this super interesting topic as a young pilot:

_When considering to buy an used ship, it's not only the purchasing price that is taken into account but also the resell value. How is it going to hold in the next years to come? No one knows but the increasing number of good sailplane manufacturers (Jonkers, Winward perf, LAK manufacturer, etc.) with excellent machines leaves me to believe this is going to drive prices down in the future.
_Having multiple racing classes is not going to drive growth but rather the opposite as the choice to race is based (for me at least) on whether I can have fun without too much risk. 18M planes theoretically out-glide 15M sailplanes and therefore seem to be more attractive. Open class is just too much of an hassle logistically speaking, it requires more skills and landing out is quite an adventure depending on the terrain. If I had to choose, I would go for the 18M as it is fun, fast and a good compromise between 15M and open-class.
_Sustainer/Motorized/pure? It's a touchy subject, flying with no engine is the purest form of gliding... However, having witnessed first hand my friends using the turbo to escape a land-out while I conceded my 'defeat' and landed-out for a very very long & frustrating retrieve, I must say I was envious of this little piece of engineering on their back! It's a nice fail-safe. Now, motorization is really the thing that takes it out of the crowd: you can go wherever you want, whenever you want. This is the purest form of liberty, which is what soaring is about.

All in all, as a young pilot who wants to learn and develop my skills as I age, here is what my plan would look like:
_Learn how to fly basic gliders (ASK-23/1-34/Pegasus/LS4) until being able to fly X-country on a regular basis - DONE
_Buy an used club glider with good performances (LS4? Pegasus? Discus?) and learn how to go further out (500km, 750km) building more and more experience on X-country flights. Start competing in Club contests. Unknown timeframe, several years for sure!
_Upon feeling okay (and after being checked by a CFI), transition to a high-performance sailplane with sustainer, making the transition to 15M class.. This is where I would LOVE to fly a modified ASW27 FES as it is a good stepping stone to high performance competition.
_Ultimately, buy a motorized 18M ship (Ventus 2cM? ASH 26?) to go on soaring adventures, safaris, etc.
OR
_I could also stop at the 15M as performance is already amazing (Thank You B4 for all those inspiring videos!!!) and I would still be extremely satisfied flying those beautiful birds. I would just need this sustainer/motorization though.

That would be my plan, knowing that each step could take years... But it's like wine: the more you wait for a Grand Cru, the better it gets. But one should not wait too long otherwise you miss the golden period!

Now, this could explain the lack of interest for 27s: if I want to go up to 15M competition and stretch my limits, I need a sustainer that 27s don't have. Don't get me wrong, the ASW27 IS the most beautiful sailplane ever designed aesthetically and technically speaking. The best value for money also. If it were to have a sustainer/FES/Jet/whatever, I would NOT hesitate for a second. However, it suffers from not having it and therefore could look less attractive than a Ventus 2bT (still beautiful, but less than the 27. Sorry Schempp-Hirth).

Again, my 2 cents. I would love to hear from other owners their buying process throughout their flying lives.. Extremely inspiring to see you guys with those amazing machines, thank you for showing us how it's done!

Cheers!

On Monday, August 21, 2017 at 12:28:04 PM UTC-4, Magnetar wrote:
My little 2 cents on this super interesting topic as a young pilot:

_When considering to buy an used ship, it's not only the purchasing price that is taken into account but also the resell value. How is it going to hold in the next years to come? No one knows but the increasing number of good sailplane manufacturers (Jonkers, Winward perf, LAK manufacturer, etc.) with excellent machines leaves me to believe this is going to drive prices down in the future.
_Having multiple racing classes is not going to drive growth but rather the opposite as the choice to race is based (for me at least) on whether I can have fun without too much risk. 18M planes theoretically out-glide 15M sailplanes and therefore seem to be more attractive. Open class is just too much of an hassle logistically speaking, it requires more skills and landing out is quite an adventure depending on the terrain. If I had to choose, I would go for the 18M as it is fun, fast and a good compromise between 15M and open-class.
_Sustainer/Motorized/pure? It's a touchy subject, flying with no engine is the purest form of gliding... However, having witnessed first hand my friends using the turbo to escape a land-out while I conceded my 'defeat' and landed-out for a very very long & frustrating retrieve, I must say I was envious of this little piece of engineering on their back! It's a nice fail-safe. Now, motorization is really the thing that takes it out of the crowd: you can go wherever you want, whenever you want. This is the purest form of liberty, which is what soaring is about.

All in all, as a young pilot who wants to learn and develop my skills as I age, here is what my plan would look like:
_Learn how to fly basic gliders (ASK-23/1-34/Pegasus/LS4) until being able to fly X-country on a regular basis - DONE
_Buy an used club glider with good performances (LS4? Pegasus? Discus?) and learn how to go further out (500km, 750km) building more and more experience on X-country flights. Start competing in Club contests. Unknown timeframe, several years for sure!
_Upon feeling okay (and after being checked by a CFI), transition to a high-performance sailplane with sustainer, making the transition to 15M class.. This is where I would LOVE to fly a modified ASW27 FES as it is a good stepping stone to high performance competition.
_Ultimately, buy a motorized 18M ship (Ventus 2cM? ASH 26?) to go on soaring adventures, safaris, etc.
OR
_I could also stop at the 15M as performance is already amazing (Thank You B4 for all those inspiring videos!!!) and I would still be extremely satisfied flying those beautiful birds. I would just need this sustainer/motorization though.

That would be my plan, knowing that each step could take years... But it's like wine: the more you wait for a Grand Cru, the better it gets. But one should not wait too long otherwise you miss the golden period!

Now, this could explain the lack of interest for 27s: if I want to go up to 15M competition and stretch my limits, I need a sustainer that 27s don't have. Don't get me wrong, the ASW27 IS the most beautiful sailplane ever designed aesthetically and technically speaking. The best value for money also. If it were to have a sustainer/FES/Jet/whatever, I would NOT hesitate for a second. However, it suffers from not having it and therefore could look less attractive than a Ventus 2bT (still beautiful, but less than the 27. Sorry Schempp-Hirth).

Again, my 2 cents. I would love to hear from other owners their buying process throughout their flying lives.. Extremely inspiring to see you guys with those amazing machines, thank you for showing us how it's done!

Cheers !Well Magnetar, Now there is no reason to hesitate. There is one FESL ASW 27B in the US with the possibility of 3 more shorty. Also plans for a jet installation in the ASW 27.

Buy a 27 with a jet. It is there, available and goes like hell
Best glider ever,
Except a libelle with a self launch E motor which will be available sometime soon

On Wednesday, August 23, 2017 at 4:23:19 PM UTC-7, Ross wrote:
Buy a 27 with a jet. It is there, available and goes like hell
Best glider ever,
Except a libelle with a self launch E motor which will be available sometime soon

I looked at the PSR system, was going to put one in an ASW27. It might be OK for flat land flying, but unless something has recently changed does not have the stamina for mountain flying. Not enough fuel capacity, climb rate, or run duration at a power level that provides a climb.
With enough interest M+D will design a system for 27/28/29. It will be a good one, seen loads in JS1s. But perhaps don't try starting it in the rain, or you could end up in a field, taking breath tests and "walking a line" for Texas police.
Wait for the US 18m Nationals article for more detail.
Jim